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Converting Miracles from One Cosm to Another

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:03 am
by Sir Alain Fisk
I have a little dilemma going on. One of my Players wants to convert his Edeinos Optant to a Nile Empire Rocket Ranger... the story he has put together, and which I am good with, makes sense for the game, so I'm going to allow him to convert, for the sake of his happiness and to, hopefully, make his Character more useful to the party. He's a hulking brute in a game I don't typically run for hulking brutes; I'll add what is necessary to make Characters relevant for my game sessions, but even then if it messes too much with the story there has to be a cutting point, right? So, as an Edeinos Optant (this was his first chosen perk), the Player chose Healing and Strike and, of course, they get Shape Plant and Ward Enemy. He also chose Stone Skin as his other initial perk. However, at the end of our second adventure as a group, he took the Miracles perk; now, according to conversation that's been held, here in these forums, if you take Optant or Gotak you get miracles for that, but if you also take the Miracles perk, you get to select two additional Miracles, instead of one, because Miracles is a different Perk than Optant or Gotak. He chose to make Bless solid -in the Living Land, Bless, Curse, Ward Enemy, and another one I can't recall, right now, can be tested by anyone from the Living Land that has Faith- and took Commune with Animals.

So, my first question is this... since he wants to convert from The Living Land to the Nile Empire, resulting in the Optant perk needing to be exchanged for something else -in this case I chose Miracles-, should he be allowed to keep Bless, Commune with Animals, Healing, Strike, and Ward Enemy? Or because he has Miracles twice, does he have to lose another Miracle from those five, which would be either Bless or Commune with Animals?

To set up the second question... my Player doesn't like the religions of the Nile Empire. He hasn't said he wants to stick with Keta Kalles, he hasn't said anything, yet, but I explained it to him like this, if he wants to stay with Keta Kalles...

"When converting over to the Nile Empire, Lanala would not just reject you as one of hers, she would no longer have the choice of seeing you and, as such, remembering you. Mo (the short name of the Edeinos Character) remembers her, Mo can send blessings, Mo can pray all he wants and invoke her name, but she is incapable of receiving, acknowledging or aiding Mo. Further, though he can invoke his miracles he is at a penalty of 2 everywhere he goes because he cannot connect with Lanala, and attempting to help anyone NOT of his faith would cause an additional penalty of 2. I know that might seem harsh, but I haven't found anywhere in the printed material that speaks to how this should work with a transformation."

So, the second question is this... does that sound fair? Or, would you handle things a different way?

Re: Converting Miracles from One Cosm to Another

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:52 am
by Wakshaani
It's a tricky thing.

RAW, miracles are only available to someone of that reality and of that religion.

Change realities, or religion, and POOF! No Miracles for you. Pick some new Perks.

Now, that said, I have no problem with someone taking a religion form another cosm but getting acces to those miracles which are part of their own Reality.

That is to say, someone from core Earth could convert to Ketta Kalles, but would only be able to take Miracles from that list that would fit in the Core Earth axioms.

In this case, it'd be similar … if they kept Ketta Kalles as their religion, they'd have to change the Optant perk, since it's not available in the Nile, but would only be able to take LL miracles with an axiom of the Nile's or less, not the full list.

It's a bridge between the two, meeting halfway as it were.

Re: Converting Miracles from One Cosm to Another

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:10 am
by Sword of Spirit
Characters can choose any religion, and the Miracles Perk is by religion, not by cosm.

A Nile Empire character can take Miracles (Keta Kalles) and pick any Miracles on the Keta Kalles list that fit their (Nile Empire) Spirit axiom.

Or at least, I'm not sure how the principle that Miracles is by religion rather than cosm has any mechanical significance whatsoever if you actually can't take Spirit axiom compatible miracles from the list of your chosen religion just because they aren't on the list of another religion (that isn't yours) associated with your home cosm.

So since it sounds like you're trying to be generous rather than punitive, I'd definitely not apply that penalty you are thinking of unless it applies to something extra you are letting them do that they couldn't normally.

The Optant Perk, and therefore access to it's list of miracles, has prerequisite of Living Land, so they wouldn't be Nile available. That's where you'd need to focus on house rules and allowing access with a penalty might be a way of enabling character details.

Re: Converting Miracles from One Cosm to Another

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:51 pm
by Wakshaani
Yeah, by RAW, you have to be from the cosm the religion's from to take Miracles from those lists.

The same's true for magic … if you're from Core Earth, the Core Earth spells are the only ones that you can ever pick from by RAW.

We tend to be a tad more generous. :D

Re: Converting Miracles from One Cosm to Another

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:03 pm
by Stolz
I guess that depends on the logic in your mind...

To me, miracles is clearly related to the religion you belong to. No matter your own cosm, if you convert to a religion and (personally) meet the spirit axiom of a miracle, you should be allowed to pick it. Some GM could even consider possible to pick miracles with a higher axiom but stating that you will be in personal contradiction every time you invoke it. I would.

Re: Converting Miracles from One Cosm to Another

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:14 pm
by Istrian
Stolz wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:03 pm
I guess that depends on the logic in your mind...

To me, miracles is clearly related to the religion you belong to. No matter your own cosm, if you convert to a religion and (personally) meet the spirit axiom of a miracle, you should be allowed to pick it. Some GM could even consider possible to pick miracles with a higher axiom but stating that you will be in personal contradiction every time you invoke it. I would.
How do you personally meet the Spirit Axiom of a miracle when your home cosm doesn't? Your personal axioms are always those of your home cosm, unless you pick the right Reality perk. Did I miss something?

Re: Converting Miracles from One Cosm to Another

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:46 pm
by Stolz
Istrian wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:14 pm
Stolz wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:03 pm
I guess that depends on the logic in your mind...

To me, miracles is clearly related to the religion you belong to. No matter your own cosm, if you convert to a religion and (personally) meet the spirit axiom of a miracle, you should be allowed to pick it. Some GM could even consider possible to pick miracles with a higher axiom but stating that you will be in personal contradiction every time you invoke it. I would.
How do you personally meet the Spirit Axiom of a miracle when your home cosm doesn't? Your personal axioms are always those of your home cosm, unless you pick the right Reality perk. Did I miss something?
Yes, you did ;) I never said you could have different axioms than your cosm.

I said the miracles should be allowed according to the religion, not the cosm. So, you could be from Cyberpapacy and convert to the religion of Dunad from Aysle and then be allowed to choose any miracles from the followers of Dunad's list (examplar of Light), as long as you personaly meet the spirit axiom of that miracle. For example, you could invoke Summon Storm (Spi 16) because it is from your religion even if you're from an other cosm.

So, it's all about the list from each religion.

Re: Converting Miracles from One Cosm to Another

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:17 pm
by Wakshaani
Stolz wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:03 pm
I guess that depends on the logic in your mind...

To me, miracles is clearly related to the religion you belong to. No matter your own cosm, if you convert to a religion and (personally) meet the spirit axiom of a miracle, you should be allowed to pick it. Some GM could even consider possible to pick miracles with a higher axiom but stating that you will be in personal contradiction every time you invoke it. I would.
Like I said, by RAW, you're locked out, but we houserule it a bit softer.

It's the same for spellcasting, by the by. By RAW, your Core Earth character has the spells listed on the Core Earth spell list and that's it, forever, unless they convert to a different cosm. Even if it's a little Axiom 6 spell from, say, Aysle? You can't learn it under the rules as written.

So we encourage a bit of softness.

Re: Converting Miracles from One Cosm to Another

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:17 pm
by Stolz
Wakshaani wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:17 pm
Stolz wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:03 pm
I guess that depends on the logic in your mind...

To me, miracles is clearly related to the religion you belong to. No matter your own cosm, if you convert to a religion and (personally) meet the spirit axiom of a miracle, you should be allowed to pick it. Some GM could even consider possible to pick miracles with a higher axiom but stating that you will be in personal contradiction every time you invoke it. I would.
Like I said, by RAW, you're locked out, but we houserule it a bit softer.

It's the same for spellcasting, by the by. By RAW, your Core Earth character has the spells listed on the Core Earth spell list and that's it, forever, unless they convert to a different cosm. Even if it's a little Axiom 6 spell from, say, Aysle? You can't learn it under the rules as written.

So we encourage a bit of softness.
I think it's all about the way I see the different mechanics behind Spells and Miracles. By RAW, they are working the same way, by designers' choice I guess. It's the simplest way and it has its own value. But I think we can do something more logic (and fun in my mind) by dealing with it otherwise.

Miracles are given by gods, according to their own will. Tney can't bend axioms, but they certainly can care for whoever they want, no matter the cosm you belong to.

Spells and magic on the contrary aren't given by a sentient entity. Then it's more logical to bind it to a specific cosm.

Yet again, it's my view and I'm aware it's not RAW.

Re: Converting Miracles from One Cosm to Another

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:41 pm
by savioronedge
It was explicitly stated somewhere (I don't have time to track it down) that Miracles is by religion; period. Axiom doesn't matter (to obtainment) Realm doesn't matter. All that matters is the Religion. (for Acquiring and attempting Miracles)

If said miracle is outside of the character's Axiom, it is a contradiction. If the Miracle is tied to World Laws, it may be a contradiction. But Contradiction doesn't stop a character from picking up gear, and it alone doesn't stop use of a Miracle.

For Mo the Rocket Ranger, however, I would think the Rocket Suit would cause a Crisis of Faith, as it is clearly outside of Ketta Kalles stricture.

Re: Converting Miracles from One Cosm to Another

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:49 pm
by Atama
savioronedge wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:41 pm
For Mo the Rocket Ranger, however, I would think the Rocket Suit would cause a Crisis of Faith, as it is clearly outside of Ketta Kalles stricture.
That’s a good point. Mo should be repulsed by the idea of wearing a “dead thing” like that. Unless you get something specially made, like grow a suit from Hrockt plants with a Miracle in the Living Land, then later stick a rocket pack to it.

Re: Converting Miracles from One Cosm to Another

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:57 pm
by Wotan
In relation to the OP, I'd probably let the character keep their Optant Perk, as it was purchased while the character was LL, so is legitimate. And, as previously discussed (since we moved over to these boards IIRC,) the RAI of the rules about switching Perks post-transformation is to stop PCs being stuck with useless Perks, not to remove anything which they no longer meet the requirements for.
/tuppence
Wakshaani wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:17 pm
Stolz wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:03 pm
I guess that depends on the logic in your mind...

To me, miracles is clearly related to the religion you belong to. No matter your own cosm, if you convert to a religion and (personally) meet the spirit axiom of a miracle, you should be allowed to pick it. Some GM could even consider possible to pick miracles with a higher axiom but stating that you will be in personal contradiction every time you invoke it. I would.
Like I said, by RAW, you're locked out, but we houserule it a bit softer.
Magic and Psi lists are determined by Cosm but Miracles are already an exception by RAW.
FAQ wrote:Q: Which lists can a player who selects the Miracles/Spellcaster/Psionic Perk gain access to?

A: For Spellcaster and Psionic it can be the list appropriate to the character's cosm in the Corebook, or to another list that is not specifically accessable via another Perk. For Miracles, the list is based on the character's religion, not cosm, and also can be from the ones listed in the Corebook, or from another list not specifically accessible via another Perk. Some of those other lists require Perks that can only be selected by a native of that cosm. For example, a character from Core Earth could theoretically choose any religion, including Keta Kalles. However, they could not select the Optant Perk from the ''Living Land Sourcebook'' since that Perk requires you to be an edeinos and native to the Living Land.

Re: Converting Miracles from One Cosm to Another

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:59 pm
by TorgHacker
Wakshaani wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:51 pm
Yeah, by RAW, you have to be from the cosm the religion's from to take Miracles from those lists.

The same's true for magic … if you're from Core Earth, the Core Earth spells are the only ones that you can ever pick from by RAW.

We tend to be a tad more generous. :D
We clarified in the FAQ:

"Q: Which lists can a player who selects the Miracles/Spellcaster/Psionic Perk gain access to?

A: For Spellcaster and Psionic it can be the list appropriate to the character's cosm in the Corebook, or to another list that is not specifically accessable via another Perk. For Miracles, the list is based on the character's religion, not cosm, and also can be from the ones listed in the Corebook, or from another list not specifically accessible via another Perk. Some of those other lists require Perks that can only be selected by a native of that cosm. For example, a character from Core Earth could theoretically choose any religion, including Keta Kalles. However, they could not select the Optant Perk from the ''Living Land Sourcebook'' since that Perk requires you to be an edeinos and native to the Living Land."

Re: Converting Miracles from One Cosm to Another

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:11 am
by Sir Alain Fisk
Wakshaani wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:52 am
Change realities, or religion, and POOF! No Miracles for you. Pick some new Perks.
The problem is... even if Mo switches from Keta Kalles to Amaatism, the miracles are still available and their Spirit requirements all fall under Axiom 18. That's why I felt it necessary to maintain those miracles, because they're not actually wrong.
That is to say, someone from core Earth could convert to Ketta Kalles, but would only be able to take Miracles from that list that would fit in the Core Earth axioms.
Right, that's what I figured with the lists between Keta Kalles and Amaatism, since they're nearly identical.
In this case, it'd be similar … if they kept Ketta Kalles as their religion, they'd have to change the Optant perk, since it's not available in the Nile, but would only be able to take LL miracles with an axiom of the Nile's or less, not the full list.
That's also what I was considering. However, as stated, the Nile Empire's Spirit Axiom is 6 points LOWER than the Living Land's, and all the miracles fit.

Thank you.
Sword of Spirit wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:10 am
So since it sounds like you're trying to be generous rather than punitive, I'd definitely not apply that penalty you are thinking of unless it applies to something extra you are letting them do that they couldn't normally.
Not so much that as the Axiom of the Nile Empire is 6 points lower than that of the Living Land, but all of the Miracles Mo has fit under that lower limit and are available in the list for Amaatism, as well. So, I don't think it's being generous so much as reasonable.
The Optant Perk, and therefore access to it's list of miracles, has prerequisite of Living Land, so they wouldn't be Nile available. That's where you'd need to focus on house rules and allowing access with a penalty might be a way of enabling character details.
Stolz wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:03 pm
To me, miracles is clearly related to the religion you belong to. No matter your own cosm, if you convert to a religion and (personally) meet the spirit axiom of a miracle, you should be allowed to pick it. Some GM could even consider possible to pick miracles with a higher axiom but stating that you will be in personal contradiction every time you invoke it. I would.
So, if I understand you both correctly, even though every Miracle Mo has in the Living Land is not only compatible, but part of the new religion's list of available Miracles, he would STILL lose the Perks and the Miracles?
Stolz wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:46 pm
So, it's all about the list from each religion.
Wakshaani wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:17 pm
It's the same for spellcasting, by the by. By RAW, your Core Earth character has the spells listed on the Core Earth spell list and that's it, forever, unless they convert to a different cosm. Even if it's a little Axiom 6 spell from, say, Aysle? You can't learn it under the rules as written.
See, that made sense to me, too, which is why I checked both lists of Miracles to see what could and could not be there. Ward Enemy is easy, of course, as EVERY Miracle list has that one, so that left me to check on four Miracles, and all four of them fit on both lists.

However, I thought it to be a relevant story item to make invocation more difficult should Mo's Player decide to keep up with Lanala and Keta Kalles, even after conversion. Unfortunately, my friend has been working so hard these past few days, he's not been able to see my recommended changes, yet.
Stolz wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:17 pm
I think it's all about the way I see the different mechanics behind Spells and Miracles. By RAW, they are working the same way, by designers' choice I guess. It's the simplest way and it has its own value. But I think we can do something more logic (and fun in my mind) by dealing with it otherwise.

Miracles are given by gods, according to their own will. Tney can't bend axioms, but they certainly can care for whoever they want, no matter the cosm you belong to.

Spells and magic on the contrary aren't given by a sentient entity. Then it's more logical to bind it to a specific cosm.

Yet again, it's my view and I'm aware it's not RAW.
Actually, I really like that bit of reasoning a lot.
savioronedge wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:41 pm
For Mo the Rocket Ranger, however, I would think the Rocket Suit would cause a Crisis of Faith, as it is clearly outside of Ketta Kalles stricture.
Atama wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:49 pm
That’s a good point. Mo should be repulsed by the idea of wearing a “dead thing” like that. Unless you get something specially made, like grow a suit from Hrockt plants with a Miracle in the Living Land, then later stick a rocket pack to it.
It's funny you should both mention that, actually, because it's something I've given thought to. Keta Kalles and, by extension Lanala and all of the life in the Living Land is about new experiences all the time. Except for it being a dead thing, the battle would have been waged within Mo concerning whether the new experiences within the dead thing would replace the status of the thing, or the thought of dealing with a dead thing would win over. It flies, it locks into position to become a battering ram, for all intents and purposes, and it covers the body a lot like his Perk Stone Skin... wouldn't all of those things be different sensations sought after by an Edeinos, which they couldn't possibly understand while being under the Living Land's axioms? Or, is it a dead thing PERIOD, to be reviled and cast aside, even after conversion to the Nile Empire?

I have a potential story reason for why Mo would view things differently, but I've got to get this done and get off to bed, ASAP... my eyes are starting to close.
Wotan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:57 pm
In relation to the OP, I'd probably let the character keep their Optant Perk, as it was purchased while the character was LL, so is legitimate. And, as previously discussed (since we moved over to these boards IIRC,) the RAI of the rules about switching Perks post-transformation is to stop PCs being stuck with useless Perks, not to remove anything which they no longer meet the requirements for.
Ooh... I hadn't considered that, but Optant has a requisite of Living Land, right?
Magic and Psi lists are determined by Cosm but Miracles are already an exception by RAW.
FAQ wrote:Q: Which lists can a player who selects the Miracles/Spellcaster/Psionic Perk gain access to?

A: For Spellcaster and Psionic it can be the list appropriate to the character's cosm in the Corebook, or to another list that is not specifically accessable via another Perk. For Miracles, the list is based on the character's religion, not cosm, and also can be from the ones listed in the Corebook, or from another list not specifically accessible via another Perk. Some of those other lists require Perks that can only be selected by a native of that cosm. For example, a character from Core Earth could theoretically choose any religion, including Keta Kalles. However, they could not select the Optant Perk from the ''Living Land Sourcebook'' since that Perk requires you to be an edeinos and native to the Living Land.
Impressive. I had not read this. Thank you.

@Torghacker, I thank you as you posted the same quotation as Wotan, just two minutes before you. Very nice.

Hmmm, you've all given me something to think about to be sure. If someone needs to be an Edeinos and only a NATIVE of the Living Land, not a current adherent to those Axioms, Mo might just get to keep Optant.

Thank you, and good night. I'm still very interested in this discussion, if you all intend to keep it going. :D