Page 1 of 1

The evil of the Wizards Cabal

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:55 am
by Zeromaru X
Havard wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:50 pm
The Green Man is the leader of the Wizards Cabal, but in DA1, the Wizards Cabal were an evil underground organization working to overthrow Uther, while in the 3E/4E books it was retconned into becoming the main organization of Wizards in the setting.

-Havard
I believe this deserves its own topic.

In my own experience, I feel the Wizards Cabal is not that good. Way too draconian in the way they impose their rules. Skelfer's answer to a "no" was genocide, and I find this a little bit extreme.

Its interesting to know they were originally evil, because this means they can still be evil. Pretending to help Uther while trying to depose him at the same time...

My question is, the change in the Cabal's goals was Arneson's idea or it was something the ZGG guys did? Or was the Cabal always good and TSR changed them to evil just because?

I know TSR did something to the Duchy of Ten that Arneson didn't liked it, so that they changed the Cabal's lore can be a possibility.

Re: The evil of the Wizards Cabal

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:15 am
by Yaztromo
Zeromaru X wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:55 am
was Arneson's idea or it was something the ZGG guys did?
Dave Arneson was a "ZGG guy". He was one of the two owners/founders, in fact, as far as I know.

Re: The evil of the Wizards Cabal

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:33 am
by Zeromaru X
My bad there, didn't knew that. So, I have to reformulate my question:

Was the Cabal always evil, and then they changed this for the D20 line? Or was the Cabal originally good, but TSR made them evil for the DA modules?

Re: The evil of the Wizards Cabal

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:27 pm
by Havard
Zeromaru X wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:33 am
My bad there, didn't knew that. So, I have to reformulate my question:

Was the Cabal always evil, and then they changed this for the D20 line? Or was the Cabal originally good, but TSR made them evil for the DA modules?
I think the main reason the Cabal was changed is that ZGG wanted to make room for a new class, the Sorcerer, which did not exist before 3E and they wanted to give the class its own niche in the setting. So they made the Cabal into a (not necessarily good, but) official organization instead of an underground group with ties to Thonia (as it was presented in the DA series). The Eldritch Underground was created as a new secret organization that supported Sorcerers.

I don't necessarily hate this change. It does add moral complexity. The Wizards Cabal remains pretty sinister, but is now a public organization that is allowed to persecute Sorcerers. If we want to preserve Uther as a good King, we can say that he has been forced to make allowances for the Wizards Cabal since his list of allies is fairly thin as it is. The MMRPG has a storyline where this relationship changes and might end up not too different from the DA situation. The most problematic thing with the 3E version of the Wizards Cabal is to me that Sildonis and Robert the Bald are members of a now supposedly sinister group.

When it comes to your question of the Wizards Cabal, before the DA series, I have seen no references to it in the FFC or other documents from the original campaign. The closest thing I find are references to the Red Mages.

-Havard

Re: The evil of the Wizards Cabal

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:44 pm
by ripvanwormer
In DA1, the Green Man, Tamis Azkanikin, is "secret head of the outlawed Wizards' Cabal." He lives in Old North Watch, a crumbling ruin on the northern coast. He led a recent magic-users' revolt in Vestfold and continues to work with "the underground conspiracy known as the Wizards' Cabal" for the overthrow of King Uther and the return of imperial rule in the North.

In the 3e supplement The Wizards' Cabal, the High Spellwise Ursula Zov led the Wizards' Cabal in siding with King Uther against Thonia, but some left the Wizards' Cabal and joined the imperial forces. We're told that in 1020, "an underground cadre of sorcerers staged a revolt in the city of Vestfold."

Taking these two sources together, it seems likely that Tamis Azkanikin was a member of the Wizards' Cabal who disagreed with Ursula Zov's decision to side with Uther, leaving the Cabal and inspiring a group of sorcerers to revolt in Vestfold. Escaping Vestfold, he allied with the Iron Duke, Taha Marcovic, and from his new lair in the ruins of Old North Watch he has built a secret organization bent on opposing Uther and his Regency Council. He might even call this underground organization the Wizards' Cabal, claiming that his group is the true Wizards' Cabal and Ursula Zov's organization is illegitimate since they betrayed the empire.

In this thread I suggested that the Vestfold Revolt was staged by Tamis Azkanikin to provide cover for the abduction of Kvale Dram, who was then taken to be interrogated in order to learn the secrets of the Comeback Inn.

Re: The evil of the Wizards Cabal

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:01 pm
by Zeromaru X
Oh, this is interesting. This the kind of information I was searching for. I see the merits of having two Wizards Cabals vying for power. We can call the "evil one" the Imperial Wizards Cabal, to diferentiate them.

I've reading sonewhere that the revolt in Vesfold was instigated by Uther, tho.