Improving the Wikipedia article for Blackmoor

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Improving the Wikipedia article for Blackmoor

Post by Big Mac »

I was just looking at the Wikipedia article for Blackmoor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackmoor

I noticed a few things that could do with a bit of improvement.

Someone has tagged the d20 System section for a lack of citations. (IMO this was done by a lazy tag-and-run merchant, as I found a couple of things on Google and I'm sure they could have done that as easily as me.)

The following facts still need reliable sources (for citations):
  • "Goodman and Zeitgeist also produced a Blackmoor d20 adventure module, Dave Arneson's Blackmoor: The Redwood Scar (2004) and sourcebook, Dave Arneson's Blackmoor: The Wizards Cabal (2005)." - As far as I can see that would be confirmation that Goodman Games published/distributed these two. (Are there any more GG products?)
  • In 2006 Zeigteist Games started publishing new books on their own. The 2006 release calendar includes a softcover reprint (with added content) of Dave Arneson's Blackmoor Campaign Setting, a hardcover version of the Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor, Player's Guide to Blackmoor, and the adventure 'Temple of the Frog (which had a sneak preview event at Gen Con 2007)." - As far as I can see that would be a confirmation of the Zeitgiest Games dates, plus a second confirmation about the GenCon thing.
  • "The version of the campaign for D&D 3.5 ended in February 2009 at Megacon with a version of the campaign for D&D 4th Edition expected to launch at GenCon 2009." - The words "expected to launch" make me think this is a guess. Does anyone know what actually happened? Got a source for that?
  • "A List of their released adventures can be found here. The episodes for the MMRPG are available for free to play at home and at Gaming conventions such as Gen Con and Megacon." - Hmm. This first sentence is just bad. But I think that the link itself could probably be used as a citation for the rest of this bit.
  • "Megacon is Blackmoor's home convention, where the new season is kicked off each year." - I can't find anything to back this up on the Megacon website. In any case, it seems to relate to MMRPG rather than the d20 System game. Is there anything on the MMRPG website?
Zeitguist Games seem to have totally zapped their own website. Anyone got any ideas on that?

I'm tempted to make MMRPG a separate section following the d20 System section (as it would seem to be a slightly different thing, that uses the 3e game and changes it). Maybe the relationship between Greyhawk and Living Greyhawk could provide a clue.

PREPOST EDIT: Just checked that. They have two sections for 3e and LG.

Has anyone got a clean copy of the Blackmoor logo? Other settings (eg: Greyhawk and Spelljammer) have the logo in a box at the top of the page. From what I can see on other pages, people will moan if the fair use rationale isn't explained or if the resolution is too high (so I might need it crunched down a bit).

Another thing to mention is a question on the article's talk page:
Should there be an inclusion of Arneson's pseudo supplement/outline of Blackmoor that Judges Guild published back in the day? I believe it contains material that still hasn't been re-presented in any other source. 65.27.14.162 05:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
How does this fit into the big picture?

One final thing I would say is that this article is biased towards Mystara. It makes no mention of the connection to Greyhawk or Wilderlands of High Adventure. I think the Mystara stuff should be there, but the relationship with the other settings should be explained. Havard was recently posting about the C&C Socieity and something about that might also be helpful (from a historical point of view).

That is all I can think of, but I know that there is a lot of real-world stuff about Blackmoor on Dragonsfoot and other places. It is possible that elements unique to Blackmoor could be explained a bit better. I'm not entirely sure where the campaign would be explained. It seems like Blackmoor was pretty much aborted by TSR, before it started. And the DA modules have got "Mystara polution".

Perhaps the Blackmoor article needs something like the Greyhawk article's Early development or Home campaign sections. (Actually, I'm really liking the way the GH article breaks the history down into years - rather than just editions. Maybe Blackmoor could benifit from that sort of change.)
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Re: Improving the Wikipedia article for Blackmoor

Post by Ashtagon »

Has anyone got a clean copy of the Blackmoor logo? Other settings (eg: Greyhawk and Spelljammer) have the logo in a box at the top of the page. From what I can see on other pages, people will moan if the fair use rationale isn't explained or if the resolution is too high (so I might need it crunched down a bit).
I have a copy of the image that was on DA's website (not sure if that's still up, as I don;t normally look there). Where do i send it? I think you have my msn address.
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Re: Improving the Wikipedia article for Blackmoor

Post by Havard »

Big Mac wrote:I was just looking at the Wikipedia article for Blackmoor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackmoor

I noticed a few things that could do with a bit of improvement.
Good man! :)
The following facts still need reliable sources (for citations):
  • "Goodman and Zeitgeist also produced a Blackmoor d20 adventure module, Dave Arneson's Blackmoor: The Redwood Scar (2004) and sourcebook, Dave Arneson's Blackmoor: The Wizards Cabal (2005)." - As far as I can see that would be confirmation that Goodman Games published/distributed these two. (Are there any more GG products?)
No, I believe those were the only products besides the main Sourcebook (Hardcover).
[*]In 2006 Zeigteist Games started publishing new books on their own. The 2006 release calendar includes a softcover reprint (with added content) of Dave Arneson's Blackmoor Campaign Setting, a hardcover version of the Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor, Player's Guide to Blackmoor, and the adventure 'Temple of the Frog (which had a sneak preview event at Gen Con 2007)." - As far as I can see that would be a confirmation of the Zeitgiest Games dates, plus a second confirmation about the GenCon thing.
There was a hardcover version of Dungeons?
[*]"The version of the campaign for D&D 3.5 ended in February 2009 at Megacon with a version of the campaign for D&D 4th Edition expected to launch at GenCon 2009." - The words "expected to launch" make me think this is a guess. Does anyone know what actually happened? Got a source for that?
The Blackmoor 4E Sourcebook pdf was released in early July. Here is something that was posted on one of their mailinglists:
Jae Walker wrote: Blackmoor: The First Campaign is now available!
Posted by: "Jae Walker" jaegamer@gmail.com jaegamer
Fri Jul 3, 2009 11:18 am (PDT)

The D&D 4th edition book "Blackmoor: The First Campaign" is now
available for purchase. RPG Shop has it, and I'm hoping you can also
get it from your Friendly Local Game Store. If you buy the paper
product, you can get the PDF free. (at least, that's what I was
told...)

http://www.rpgshop. com/default/ dave-arneson- s-blackmoor- 4e-gsl.html

Jae Walker
DAB Blackmoor 4.0 Cat Herder
As to Blackmoor, this was supposed to be handled by Code Monkey Press. Apparently there was a huge turnout of players, far too many compared to the number of Judges who showed up. Based on what the people I have talked to about this event were pretty unhappy about how things were handled by CMP.

We were also told that Age of the Wolf would be sold at GenCon, first as print copies, then only as pdfs "due to problems with shipping", but it was later revealed that the book had not even been written yet.


[*]"Megacon is Blackmoor's home convention, where the new season is kicked off each year." - I can't find anything to back this up on the Megacon website. In any case, it seems to relate to MMRPG rather than the d20 System game. Is there anything on the MMRPG website?[/list]
I do remember Megacon being mentioned quite a few times, but I never paid much attention to it since I assumed I would not be able to attend.
Zeitguist Games seem to have totally zapped their own website. Anyone got any ideas on that?
you mean http://www.zeitgeistgames.com/ ?

Its been like this for ages.
I'm tempted to make MMRPG a separate section following the d20 System section (as it would seem to be a slightly different thing, that uses the 3e game and changes it). Maybe the relationship between Greyhawk and Living Greyhawk could provide a clue.
Interesting. Go for it!


Has anyone got a clean copy of the Blackmoor logo? Other settings (eg: Greyhawk and Spelljammer) have the logo in a box at the top of the page. From what I can see on other pages, people will moan if the fair use rationale isn't explained or if the resolution is too high (so I might need it crunched down a bit).
This is the best I've found so far:
Image


Also this one looks like it could easily be ripped out of the cover:

Image


Another thing to mention is a question on the article's talk page:
Should there be an inclusion of Arneson's pseudo supplement/outline of Blackmoor that Judges Guild published back in the day? I believe it contains material that still hasn't been re-presented in any other source. 65.27.14.162 05:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
How does this fit into the big picture?
You mean theFirst Fantasy Campaign? Yes it should definately be included!

One final thing I would say is that this article is biased towards Mystara. It makes no mention of the connection to Greyhawk or Wilderlands of High Adventure. I think the Mystara stuff should be there, but the relationship with the other settings should be explained. Havard was recently posting about the C&C Socieity and something about that might also be helpful (from a historical point of view).
The Mystara connection is stronger given the fact that the entire DA series were set in Mystara and also given the number of Mystara products referencing Blackmoor. I agree that the other settings should be included as well though.
That is all I can think of, but I know that there is a lot of real-world stuff about Blackmoor on Dragonsfoot and other places. It is possible that elements unique to Blackmoor could be explained a bit better. I'm not entirely sure where the campaign would be explained. It seems like Blackmoor was pretty much aborted by TSR, before it started. And the DA modules have got "Mystara polution".
The story of Blackmoor and TSR has to do with the Arneson/Gygax lawsuit and then Blackmoor being brought back for the DA series, possibly thanks to Bruce Heard who seems to have had a soft spot for Blackmoor.
Perhaps the Blackmoor article needs something like the Greyhawk article's Early development or Home campaign sections. (Actually, I'm really liking the way the GH article breaks the history down into years - rather than just editions. Maybe Blackmoor could benifit from that sort of change.)
Go for it! :)

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Re: Improving the Wikipedia article for Blackmoor

Post by Big Mac »

Ashtagon wrote:
Has anyone got a clean copy of the Blackmoor logo? Other settings (eg: Greyhawk and Spelljammer) have the logo in a box at the top of the page. From what I can see on other pages, people will moan if the fair use rationale isn't explained or if the resolution is too high (so I might need it crunched down a bit).
I have a copy of the image that was on DA's website (not sure if that's still up, as I don;t normally look there). Where do i send it? I think you have my msn address.
I had your MSN email address...on my PC. Unfortunately my PC is a bit stuffed up. I'll use the email feature from The Piazza to send you my email address.
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Re: Improving the Wikipedia article for Blackmoor

Post by Big Mac »

Ashtagon wrote:
Has anyone got a clean copy of the Blackmoor logo? Other settings (eg: Greyhawk and Spelljammer) have the logo in a box at the top of the page. From what I can see on other pages, people will moan if the fair use rationale isn't explained or if the resolution is too high (so I might need it crunched down a bit).
I have a copy of the image that was on DA's website (not sure if that's still up, as I don;t normally look there). Where do i send it? I think you have my msn address.
Thanks for the email, Ash. I used your second image. Then I realised it was too big and shrank it down a bit.

It is possible, with this being a wiki, that someone else will come along and decide to replace that image with another one (if they think they can do it better). If they want to improve the article, I don't care if my contribution goes. That is the wiki way. A lot of my work on the Spelljammer article vanished as other people came along.
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Re: Improving the Wikipedia article for Blackmoor

Post by Havard »

Big Mac wrote:Thanks for the email, Ash. I used your second image. Then I realised it was too big and shrank it down a bit.

It is possible, with this being a wiki, that someone else will come along and decide to replace that image with another one (if they think they can do it better). If they want to improve the article, I don't care if my contribution goes. That is the wiki way. A lot of my work on the Spelljammer article vanished as other people came along.
Looks good David!

I would be interested in seeing this bigger size version of the cleaned up logo...

As to the wikipedia page itself, I think its great that its being updated. I would also have liked to see more covers on the page. Specifically:

The First Fantasy Campaign:

Image

DA1 Adventures in Blackmoor

Image

D20 Blackmoor Campaign
Image

4E Blackmoor First Campaign
Image


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Re: Improving the Wikipedia article for Blackmoor

Post by Big Mac »

You have given me a lot of facts, Havard, but I need "citations". I've signed up on Wikipedia years back and didn't explain my needs properly.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and articles need to be given citations (links to places where facts can be verified).

There are a bunch of "delitionists" who think that D&D is something too trivial to be put onto Wikipedia and who work against badly written articles and attempt to get them removed, so it is important that citations meet the Wikipedia standard, otherwise the citation can be attacked and then the section of the article it is associated with can also be attacked.

Original research is not allowed on Wikipedia.

In other words, what Wikipedia actually wants is for people to read other websites, books and magazines, work out which ones have "good facts on", rip off the facts and then provide a page back to the page they grabbed the facts from! :P

(BTW: I do not agree with all of the policies of Wikipedia, which is one of the reasons I started up a standalone wiki for Spelljammer. The anal-retentive behaviour of the delitionists means that an expert on a subject, who is bad at citations will constantly be slapped down until their work is all gone.)
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Zeitguist Games seem to have totally zapped their own website. Anyone got any ideas on that?
you mean http://www.zeitgeistgames.com/ ?

Its been like this for ages.
That kind of makes citatations impossible. Did they post any press releases elsewhere?
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I'm tempted to make MMRPG a separate section following the d20 System section (as it would seem to be a slightly different thing, that uses the 3e game and changes it). Maybe the relationship between Greyhawk and Living Greyhawk could provide a clue.
Interesting. Go for it!
I have put in a separate section.
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Another thing to mention is a question on the article's talk page:
Should there be an inclusion of Arneson's pseudo supplement/outline of Blackmoor that Judges Guild published back in the day? I believe it contains material that still hasn't been re-presented in any other source. 65.27.14.162 05:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
How does this fit into the big picture?
You mean theFirst Fantasy Campaign? Yes it should definately be included!
Done. Plus I did add a picture.
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:One final thing I would say is that this article is biased towards Mystara. It makes no mention of the connection to Greyhawk or Wilderlands of High Adventure. I think the Mystara stuff should be there, but the relationship with the other settings should be explained. Havard was recently posting about the C&C Socieity and something about that might also be helpful (from a historical point of view).
The Mystara connection is stronger given the fact that the entire DA series were set in Mystara and also given the number of Mystara products referencing Blackmoor. I agree that the other settings should be included as well though.
I've renamed that section "DA module series" and linked to the article about those modules.

I still think it is wrong. Plus from what I can see elsewhere, it looks like Dave Arneson left TSR and then went back for the DA modules, but this article seems to suggest he left TSR in the 1980s.
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:That is all I can think of, but I know that there is a lot of real-world stuff about Blackmoor on Dragonsfoot and other places. It is possible that elements unique to Blackmoor could be explained a bit better. I'm not entirely sure where the campaign would be explained. It seems like Blackmoor was pretty much aborted by TSR, before it started. And the DA modules have got "Mystara polution".
The story of Blackmoor and TSR has to do with the Arneson/Gygax lawsuit and then Blackmoor being brought back for the DA series, possibly thanks to Bruce Heard who seems to have had a soft spot for Blackmoor.
Possibly doesn't do it. An uncitated guess would just make the article worse. If you are not sure, then I'm not going to touch it. Even if you were sure, I would need a ciation.
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Perhaps the Blackmoor article needs something like the Greyhawk article's Early development or Home campaign sections. (Actually, I'm really liking the way the GH article breaks the history down into years - rather than just editions. Maybe Blackmoor could benifit from that sort of change.)
Go for it! :)
I've got a feeling the article would work better with chronological sections that show that Blackmoor started with TSR, then switched to Judges Guild, then went back to TSR, then was licenced from Wizards of the Coast by Zietguist Games and then was sublicenced onto Code Monkey. Greyhawk has dates for all this stuff.

But I do need a bit of background to backup the behind the scenes stuff. I don't know enough to do this, but I might slap something up on the talk page and see if anyone else does anything with it.
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Re: Improving the Wikipedia article for Blackmoor

Post by Big Mac »

Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Thanks for the email, Ash. I used your second image. Then I realised it was too big and shrank it down a bit.

It is possible, with this being a wiki, that someone else will come along and decide to replace that image with another one (if they think they can do it better). If they want to improve the article, I don't care if my contribution goes. That is the wiki way. A lot of my work on the Spelljammer article vanished as other people came along.
Looks good David!
Thanks. I think I've done nearly everything I can do. I'm not BOZ. ;)
Havard wrote:I would be interested in seeing this bigger size version of the cleaned up logo...
You can actually see it on the history of the image page. Just click the image and you get to this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blackmoor_logo.png

Then scroll down to the bottom of the page, click the last image and you get to this page:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... r_logo.png

Havard wrote:As to the wikipedia page itself, I think its great that its being updated. I would also have liked to see more covers on the page. Specifically:

The First Fantasy Campaign:

Image
Beat you to it!

To be honest, if I totally seed the article with pictures, some might get yanked. These should really be on a page dedicated to the product. First Fantasy Campaign is probably "important" (from an encyclopaedic point of view) because it is an example of Dave Arneson leaving TSR and making a Blackmoor product with another company. (That would probably be the sort of angle that the article would need. Sadly, that is beyond my expertise and I'm not offering to fix every Blackmoor related article.)
Havard wrote:DA1 Adventures in Blackmoor

Image
You can find that on the DA module series article. I added a link to that at the same time you posted this reply.
Havard wrote:D20 Blackmoor Campaign
Image
I really think that this needs its own article, which would be beyond my expertise. What you have here is a licenced remake of Blackmoor designed to be compatible with the 3e rules. There are so many things about this (why the licence was given, why Zeitguist Games got it, how the team got together, why Goodman Games was involved, why Goodman Games gave this back to Zeitguist and Dave Arneson's decreasing health) that form an important background to this (and the products that go with it.
Havard wrote:4E Blackmoor First Campaign
Image
Again, I think this should be a separate article. From a real-world point of view, you have the whole thing of Dave Arneson dying, Zeitguist Games passing this over to Code Monkey. Age of the Wolf and the apparant end of the line for Blackmoor (which needs to be written carefully as it is current events and may change).
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