Clerics of a Force or a Philosophy?

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Re: Clerics of a Force or a Philosophy?

Post by Big Mac »

Knightfall wrote:Of course, those divine restriction would apply to the native denizens of Realmspace. However, if a force/philosophy priest from another crystal sphere enters Realmspace, there is no way I would rule that he/she would have to pick a god while there. Their power comes from elsewhere. Maybe Ao could block that cleric's power or limit it, but to be forced to choose a Realmsian god likely would go against the priest's beliefs.
My interpretation of this (and your SJDs may vary) is that Jeff Grubb intended the crystal sphere to be a "reality barrier". If priests can not pull higher level spells through that barrier, into the phlogiston, it stands to reason that they can not pull those same higher level spells through the edge of two crystal spheres into the wildspace in a foreign crystal sphere. This is where the Contact Home Power spell allows a priest to create a conduit that allows them to connect a foreign crystal sphere back to their power source (which is usually a deity, but in this case is a force or a philosophy).

We do know that there are faiths that already found in multiple spheres. And we do know that CGR1 The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook explains the process where a priest can spend a year building up a large enough stronghold, with enough worshippers, to create a permanent conduiit to their deity. That process makes a non-native deity into a native one, so it stands to reason that a similar process should allow a priest to establish a philosophy.

However I think that a force should probably either already be in a crystal sphere or already not be in a crystal sphere. And a force should either be something that a deity has taken control of or it should be something that no deity has control over. If you don't have a force within a specific crystal sphere, I don't see how a stronghold full of people that believe in that force, could somehow make it appear. However, we are talking of a D&D universe, where the universe can be re-written to make it impossible to create artefacts, where overgods can turn deities into mortals (and mortals into deities) we are talking of a D&D universe where the world of Abeir-Toril can be torn into two and then recombined into one. So the idea of a force suddenly manifesting on a certain day is not any more "impossible" than those things.

Ultimately, it is down to individual GMs to decide what they want to do in their game, but I think you can infer logic that supports restricting or allowing forces and philosophies.
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Re: Clerics of a Force or a Philosophy?

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Tom Bulls Eye wrote:I think you're misinterpreting my answer here. I suggested an answer to the question of what connects the cleric to the force he/she serves, the answer being faith. I didn't state that faith grants the spells.
I think that the general faith in that force is what the priest is tapping into.

Here is a thought experiment for you. Lycanthropes exist in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms but do not exist in Dragonlance. All three settings have moons around the main campaign world, so in theory lycanthropy could work in Dragonlance too.

It would seem that some sort of "moon force" allows lycanthopy to work on Oerth and Toril, but is blocked on Krynn. So we can infer that people talk about lycanthropy on Oerth and Toril, but do not know what it is on Krynn. Is that because the moon force is there, but the infection is not? Or is it because the Moons of Magic do not generate the force that turns lycanthropy on and off?

If we were to imagine a cleric that believes in lycanthropy (maybe they would hail from the Vodoni Empire) and they went to Greyspace or Realmspace, there would be lycanthropy in that sphere so the force they believe in might be present. But if they went to Krynnspace, where the force they believe in is either not-present or is supressed, I'm not sure their faith in lycanthropy would be able to overide the lack lycanthropy and allow them to regain spells. And trying to gather a stronghold full of followers would believe in lycanthropy would be pretty difficult in Krynnspace, if the view there is that lycanthropy is either non-existent or something that does not happen in this sphere.

So I'm not sure that faith could cut through the barrier and allow a belief in lycantrophy to "get into Krynn", if there is actually something blocking it from working. And I would assume that, if it was an infection, that it would have already gotten into the crystal sphere by now.
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Re: Clerics of a Force or a Philosophy?

Post by Knightfall »

Big Mac wrote:
Knightfall wrote:Of course, those divine restriction would apply to the native denizens of Realmspace. However, if a force/philosophy priest from another crystal sphere enters Realmspace, there is no way I would rule that he/she would have to pick a god while there. Their power comes from elsewhere. Maybe Ao could block that cleric's power or limit it, but to be forced to choose a Realmsian god likely would go against the priest's beliefs.
My interpretation of this (and your SJDs may vary) is that Jeff Grubb intended the crystal sphere to be a "reality barrier". If priests can not pull higher level spells through that barrier, into the phlogiston, it stands to reason that they can not pull those same higher level spells through the edge of two crystal spheres into the wildspace in a foreign crystal sphere. This is where the Contact Home Power spell allows a priest to create a conduit that allows them to connect a foreign crystal sphere back to their power source (which is usually a deity, but in this case is a force or a philosophy).

We do know that there are faiths that already found in multiple spheres. And we do know that CGR1 The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook explains the process where a priest can spend a year building up a large enough stronghold, with enough worshippers, to create a permanent conduiit to their deity. That process makes a non-native deity into a native one, so it stands to reason that a similar process should allow a priest to establish a philosophy.

However I think that a force should probably either already be in a crystal sphere or already not be in a crystal sphere. And a force should either be something that a deity has taken control of or it should be something that no deity has control over. If you don't have a force within a specific crystal sphere, I don't see how a stronghold full of people that believe in that force, could somehow make it appear. However, we are talking of a D&D universe, where the universe can be re-written to make it impossible to create artefacts, where overgods can turn deities into mortals (and mortals into deities) we are talking of a D&D universe where the world of Abeir-Toril can be torn into two and then recombined into one. So the idea of a force suddenly manifesting on a certain day is not any more "impossible" than those things.

Ultimately, it is down to individual GMs to decide what they want to do in their game, but I think you can infer logic that supports restricting or allowing forces and philosophies.
That all sounds logical to me.

Certain forces would definitely be universal while philosophies would be more scattered. A 'force' might have different names in different spheres but it's the same force, regardless. Could lead to some very interesting roleplaying. Imagine coming into conflict with NPCs that worship the same force as your priest, but how they worship is radically different. They might consider your priest to be heretic or simply crazy. The new priest find cause a revolution in worship against the traditions of the force church simply by being him/herself. The priest isn't trying to start a reformation, but the ideas catch on like wildfire.
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Re: Clerics of a Force or a Philosophy?

Post by Tom Bulls Eye »

Big Mac wrote:
Tom Bulls Eye wrote:I think you're misinterpreting my answer here. I suggested an answer to the question of what connects the cleric to the force he/she serves, the answer being faith. I didn't state that faith grants the spells.
I think that the general faith in that force is what the priest is tapping into.

Here is a thought experiment for you. Lycanthropes exist in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms but do not exist in Dragonlance. All three settings have moons around the main campaign world, so in theory lycanthropy could work in Dragonlance too.

It would seem that some sort of "moon force" allows lycanthopy to work on Oerth and Toril, but is blocked on Krynn. So we can infer that people talk about lycanthropy on Oerth and Toril, but do not know what it is on Krynn. Is that because the moon force is there, but the infection is not? Or is it because the Moons of Magic do not generate the force that turns lycanthropy on and off?

If we were to imagine a cleric that believes in lycanthropy (maybe they would hail from the Vodoni Empire) and they went to Greyspace or Realmspace, there would be lycanthropy in that sphere so the force they believe in might be present. But if they went to Krynnspace, where the force they believe in is either not-present or is supressed, I'm not sure their faith in lycanthropy would be able to overide the lack lycanthropy and allow them to regain spells. And trying to gather a stronghold full of followers would believe in lycanthropy would be pretty difficult in Krynnspace, if the view there is that lycanthropy is either non-existent or something that does not happen in this sphere.

So I'm not sure that faith could cut through the barrier and allow a belief in lycantrophy to "get into Krynn", if there is actually something blocking it from working. And I would assume that, if it was an infection, that it would have already gotten into the crystal sphere by now.
It is a perfectly viable theology, but the opposite could be true as well since in your example the cleric will have knowledge of lycanthropy, not merely belief in lycanthropy, so faith would be extra strong.

I doubt there is an answer to this question based on any rules or such. The power of the God may dwindle with distance and no matter how hard you cry to the skies, your prayers remain unanswered, or there could be a direct link, e.g. through faith, which keeps the connection open at all times. DM's discretion.

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