The Grand Army of Glantri.... revised and updated

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Re: The Grand Army of Glantri.... revised and updated

Postby Gecko » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:07 am

micky wrote:
Gecko wrote:
Assistant commander: Master General Hans Grüber (M28)


Is that supposed to be a Die Hard reference? During the war he commanded the 14th, right? Is Heinrich Kruger still around?


Of COURSE it is :lol: I mean come on... is there another Hans Grüber?? :lol: :lol: I don't recall ever having him command the 14th but as we moved from the 1st generation of this to the more fleshed out 2nd generation I don't intend for him to have commanded a reserve division. He is the senior, in terms of service, talent and experience of all the assistant Division commanders and did command the 1st division during the Great War. Obviously he is no spring chicken, it took years to reach that level as a wizard and in field experience. The war with Ethengar, which we'll detail after we finish the Great War, will be his last go around. He'll either die, retire, or get promoted to the GAHC.


The 14th was a reserve division? I thought it was Jagger's second division?

Head Physician: Surgeon General (Dr.) Nicolette Kluijver (M14)


Might be best to avoid using the name of a famous real world person What does Doctor mean in this context?


cute... but yeah. Probably not a good idea. My notoriously eccentric sense of humor has resulted in a more than a few real world names being sprinkled into these works, as much for my humor as to see if anyone s paying attention closely enough to catch them, but most are obscure and most are not current. That one was a fail. I'll change her name.

Doctor was as doctor is. It is what it says it is. We zapped the Shepherd of Rad angle, but these doctors who have had training or knowledge in the traditional (non clerical) ...real world.. healing and medicine.


A self assumed title or are there academic institutions granting these titles in your Mystara?

Type of Unit: Mobile Assault Division
BFR: 138 Troop Class: Elite BR: 236
MV: 18 miles a day (1st, 3rd and 4th Banners can move up to 24 miles/day if alone)
Combatants: 880 Soldiers and Officers
Total Division Strength (including staff and Support banner): 1016


How did you calculate the BFR? What 7 bonus's did they get? to get 1016 your counting Dolores as well?


per the rulebook obviously... I did all of this on notepads but those notes have long since been recycled.. but let me see if I can recreate my calculation.

Leaders Experience Level - 28 (Hans Grüber) +4 adjustments = 32 for Leadership factor. I used the assistant commander, not the Princes as the basis for the leaders. More realistic as they, not the Princes are the day to day commanders plus it gave a nice BFR distinction between the elite 8 pre-war divisions and the newly formed 9th-16th divisions that have lower Leadership values (more inexperienced commanders) rather than the blanket high values of using the commanding Prince.


I was assuming you used the de-facto actual leader. The +4 adjustments I didn't know about. But don't they get a +2 for being 1% of name level?

Experience Factor - arrgg... you are going to make me do these calculations again Greg :lol: :roll: Pretty sure this division averaged 7th level in officers, 4th level in troops. I gave it due to its success in the Great War a net +10 for victories/defeats. Makes the Experience factor = 39


Here's where I differ. Are you counting the Deputy Commander? or what about what other entries would call the "Hero's"? (Head Mage, Knight, Physician). Are you remembering the Major's?
Under the new version I get that the average officer level is 8.19, the average troop level is 3.93. If it's then a +10, I get 42

Training Factor - maxed, which by those rulebook standards any full time division should have. Only requires 20 weeks training out of 48 possible annual weeks to attain. (personally I'd have tweaked that in the War Machine rules) anyhow - 52 for Training factor


you assume max'd for any full time unit? usually for the War machine "training time" is considered to cost extra pay, so if they are spending almost 42% of their time in training, that will increase the cost to the treasury more. Also, they don't get any time off? And the leader's with them in all that training time?

Equipment factor - alone of all teh Glantrian divisions.. the 1st has excellent weapons. +15 = 15 for Equipment factor.


Excellent weapons, ok didn't know about that. Are the Secondary weapons not of the same quality? I would have to do all the calculations to be sure, but it sure looks like they wouldn't get the armor class bonus.

...for determining BR. they get both both mounted bonuses (2), both missile bonuses (4), one magical bonus (5), and two of the spell bonuses (7)


so: a, b, c, d, e, h, & i
It's been a long time since I look at movement rates in BECMI, but don't they get the Speed ("l") bonus?

Soldiers ranked Deca and above have a 30% chance (+25% per rank above Deca) of having one or more magical items and/or magical weapons.


So I calculate that would mean that 4 deca's, 4 Senior Sergeants (80%), and the Lt & captain (>100%) have magic items (10 total), is that right?


that was the intent.. I did stack the percentages that in most cases officers had at least one magic time thus the 100. Obviously the percentage varied per type of banner and the overall eliteness of the division.


So Senior Sgt would be considered 2 ranks above Deca even though there are no basic Sgt's here (ie 80% not 55%, right?)

1st Company (Brandenburg): 50 elite mounted Light Infantry (F5) armed with short swords, daggers and leather armor+1
...
2nd Company (Gelandeerkundung) - 50 mounted elite Light Infantry (T4) armed with short swords, nets, daggers +1 and leather armor


The +1 daggers, even as a tertiary weapon, I think would meet the requirements to get them the BR bonus, but I'm not sure, does magic armor count?


it did, it was one of the 7 bonuses, as they qualified for the 1% of force equipped with such things...


Well, they get that bonus even without that, I'm questioning whether or not (for other situations, since it doesn't matter here) would a magic armor count towards the "e", "f", & "g" magical bonus's? I think it would, but I'm not sure. The RC specifies "magical weapons (sword +1, arow +2, et al.)" and "wands and other devices". It doesn't say, for example, "magic armor (Leather +2, Shield +1, et al.)" but it does list "magical defenses" (which I take to mean something like prismatic wall or invisibility, but I could also see it being a larger category including both that and magic armors).

2nd Banner (Blitzkrieg): 120 elite Arcaner Cavalry (M5) armed with slings and staffs, 4 Senior Sergeants (M7); 180 elite Heavy Cavalry (F6) armed with lances, longswords, and full plate armor; 6 Senior Sergeants (F8), 2 Lieutenant (F9, M9), 1 Captain (M11) all riding armored warhorses.


Lineage-wise, they are the former 4th Banner, right?


1st banner, the magical one. Which then added mundane elements into the combined arms force it became during the Great War.


oh.... I'm talking about the great war to present lineage (ie comparing to your previous version). If your going all the way back to the Gaz, then the 1st became the 4th during the great war which then became the 2nd?

3rd Banner (Schwerpunkt):

...

yep

ok

4th Banner (Bogenschütze):

Are they mounted just to have the mobility to keep up with the other banners? Like with the bow-armed cavalry discussion, how might their mobility effect their employment?


exactly.. they are not trained to fight on horseback. Only in terms of mobility and getting where needed as quickly as possible.


yes, I understand the military term "mounted" is assumed to mean "they dismount to fight, being mounted only for movement to a battle, unless specified otherwise in a specific description". It's a bit unusual to have true/proper "Mounted Archers" (most people would confuse the term with Mongolian style Horse-Archers, or Numidian Camel-Archers, or such, who actually do shoot/fight from mount-back. There's relatively few historical examples of true ""mounted archers" who dismount before firing") I was asking if you had any thoughts on how a competent commander might best utilize their mobility during or before a battle? be it in either offense or defense -compared to the more standard un-mounted archers- and thus might want to include that in the italicized text - ultimately it's not needed, the clarification you alread have is good enough, I just wondered if you had something in mind beyond simply "so they can keep up with the other banners" and the meta reason of "to get the division a higher movement stat"

whew.... keep up the great feedback Greg. :D


out of time for now.... This took too long. Will have to address the rest later.
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Re: The Grand Army of Glantri.... revised and updated

Postby micky » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:22 pm

yeah... I did give you a lot to comment on. I'll address the comments when I get back home this evening, however in case you beat me back so to speak, don't bother replying to the Ethengarian bits I did. I its all changed and changing. I started a more complete job on them last night and likely will create a thread for that subject as I made some demographic assumptions due the very little we have to work with on the Ethies, canon and fandom, I'll post that all in a new thread.
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Re: The Grand Army of Glantri.... revised and updated

Postby micky » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:00 am

god I love quote pyramids

Gecko wrote:
micky wrote:
Gecko wrote:
Assistant commander: Master General Hans Grüber (M28)


Is that supposed to be a Die Hard reference? During the war he commanded the 14th, right? Is Heinrich Kruger still around?


Of COURSE it is :lol: I mean come on... is there another Hans Grüber?? :lol: :lol: I don't recall ever having him command the 14th but as we moved from the 1st generation of this to the more fleshed out 2nd generation I don't intend for him to have commanded a reserve division. He is the senior, in terms of service, talent and experience of all the assistant Division commanders and did command the 1st division during the Great War. Obviously he is no spring chicken, it took years to reach that level as a wizard and in field experience. The war with Ethengar, which we'll detail after we finish the Great War, will be his last go around. He'll either die, retire, or get promoted to the GAHC.


The 14th was a reserve division? I thought it was Jagger's second division?
In the 1st generation of this.. and we have made a LOT of changes in v.2. We have been working on the 2nd generation since we both came back to this topic last month. Jagger became Warden of the Marches with the outbreak of the war, he continued as such after the war due to the politics involved as I noted a page or two back.. he hasn't commanded 'divisions' since 1004.

remember.. there are now in v.2 of the history of the Glantrian Army two 14th Divisions in play. The 14th (Res)Division of 1005-1009 which was a reserve division. It, along with all but the original 8 were dissolved after the end of the war with Alphatia. In 1010 8 new divisions were created, the 9th - 16th. No lineageto the old 1005-1009 divisions as we discussed a page or two back. Also in v.1 remember the 14th Division was not a traditional combat division but a support division, I 86'd that notion in v.2 for many reasons, one that the Thyatians, and Kerendians were completely missing from the Great Army and made no sense to have 2 Hattian themed divisions, yet not ONE for either of those two larger ethnic groups. So I made the 14th a Thyatian Heavy Infantry division.


Head Physician: Surgeon General (Dr.) Nicolette Kluijver (M14)


Might be best to avoid using the name of a famous real world person What does Doctor mean in this context?


cute... but yeah. Probably not a good idea. My notoriously eccentric sense of humor has resulted in a more than a few real world names being sprinkled into these works, as much for my humor as to see if anyone s paying attention closely enough to catch them, but most are obscure and most are not current. That one was a fail. I'll change her name.

Doctor was as doctor is. It is what it says it is. We zapped the Shepherd of Rad angle, but these doctors who have had training or knowledge in the traditional (non clerical) ...real world.. healing and medicine.


A self assumed title or are there academic institutions granting these titles in your Mystara?

ahh.. I did go back and correct the name, and when I did I saw what you were talking about. The (Dr.) title. Deleted. A missed residue from the first attemps to change from the Shepherds of Rad to Surgeon Generals hahah. You know, funny you ask, if you'll note many of the Divisional Physicians are Boldavian. I could have SWORN I wrote something regarding a school of medicine in Boldavia, but I can't find it. Boldavia is due a major revision to bring it (and other previous Principalities) up to current standards. Unless I do find where I mentioned this medical school, I'll insert a mention of it in Rymskigrad and include the location on my map of the town.

Type of Unit: Mobile Assault Division
BFR: 138 Troop Class: Elite BR: 236
MV: 18 miles a day (1st, 3rd and 4th Banners can move up to 24 miles/day if alone)
Combatants: 880 Soldiers and Officers
Total Division Strength (including staff and Support banner): 1016


How did you calculate the BFR? What 7 bonus's did they get? to get 1016 your counting Dolores as well?


per the rulebook obviously... I did all of this on notepads but those notes have long since been recycled.. but let me see if I can recreate my calculation.

Leaders Experience Level - 28 (Hans Grüber) +4 adjustments = 32 for Leadership factor. I used the assistant commander, not the Princes as the basis for the leaders. More realistic as they, not the Princes are the day to day commanders plus it gave a nice BFR distinction between the elite 8 pre-war divisions and the newly formed 9th-16th divisions that have lower Leadership values (more inexperienced commanders) rather than the blanket high values of using the commanding Prince.


I was assuming you used the de-facto actual leader. The +4 adjustments I didn't know about. But don't they get a +2 for being 1% of name level?

they would need 9 name level officers or men to qualify for that bonus. Some divisions might be close but off the top of my head I don't think any Glantrian division has 9 name level officers or soldiers in it. Most have 2 for CO and XO, a few have them as Captains but you'd need 7 name level officers/ or NCO's to still reach that 1%. As I read the way that bonus reads at least.

Experience Factor - arrgg... you are going to make me do these calculations again Greg :lol: :roll: Pretty sure this division averaged 7th level in officers, 4th level in troops. I gave it due to its success in the Great War a net +10 for victories/defeats. Makes the Experience factor = 39


Here's where I differ. Are you counting the Deputy Commander? or what about what other entries would call the "Hero's"? (Head Mage, Knight, Physician). Are you remembering the Major's?
Under the new version I get that the average officer level is 8.19, the average troop level is 3.93. If it's then a +10, I get 42

counted the Executive Officer.. and honestly I don't remember IF I did count the commander hahah. As I said it has been awhile since I did these. Wait...In fact, I should have. I did count them on the Ethengarian divisions I did last night.

The others I did not count as they are not really either: (staff)combat or leadership affiliated. Just as we don't count the logistical banners. The Knight and Mage.. oohh..sticky.. for they are not really members of the division. Is it fair to include them? Let's be honest, these Glantrian divisions are supercharged already :lol: For now, in none of these divisions B.M. calculations did I include Knights or Mages.


Training Factor - maxed, which by those rulebook standards any full time division should have. Only requires 20 weeks training out of 48 possible annual weeks to attain. (personally I'd have tweaked that in the War Machine rules) anyhow - 52 for Training factor


you assume max'd for any full time unit? usually for the War machine "training time" is considered to cost extra pay, so if they are spending almost 42% of their time in training, that will increase the cost to the treasury more. Also, they don't get any time off? And the leader's with them in all that training time?

well let's be fair the rules sure don't help guide us do they lmao. When I was in the service.. I was getting into barfights and chasing the local wildlife when not on duty but when we were on duty... we were training. I took that section to mean just that. Those forces are not just sitting around doing nothing and getting paid handsomely for it, they are being trained. They are full time divisions, they are trained full time. That is why the have the BFR they do. Training doesn't cost extra over and above what they get paid, they get a wage, they earn it and don't get paid to sleep for 10 hours a day haha. Yes. Soldiers get leave, the unit itself does not dissolve it is always on duty. 48 weeks a year 336 day a year. The leaders get leave as any and all though, but like the soliders it is a full time job, thus the high BFR, and the SKY HIGH wages these officers get. Again, they don't get paid to do nothing, they drill and train their troops.

Equipment factor - alone of all teh Glantrian divisions.. the 1st has excellent weapons. +15 = 15 for Equipment factor.


Excellent weapons, ok didn't know about that. Are the Secondary weapons not of the same quality? I would have to do all the calculations to be sure, but it sure looks like they wouldn't get the armor class bonus.

I don't recall any Glantrian division getting the AC bonus (edit. I think the 14th Div did as over 50% of the division is in chain mail or better), not sure about the secondary weapons. I don't think quality matters in determining the Equipment Factor. It only asks IF they have a secondary weapon, i.e. if those were excellent quality you wouldn't get a 2nd +10.

...for determining BR. they get both both mounted bonuses (2), both missile bonuses (4), one magical bonus (5), and two of the spell bonuses (7)


so: a, b, c, d, e, h, & i
It's been a long time since I look at movement rates in BECMI, but don't they get the Speed ("l") bonus?

ahhh... I killed brain cells debating that one Greg. I finally ruled 'No' on that. They are not a Calvary division, I left that discintion, that bonus to troops trained to fight on horse back. Otherwise.. ahem.. if troops simply had increased movemetn to get to a battle, like the 1st, and dismounted when they got to the battle, then why would they get the bonus. However the verbage of the Speed bonus does not make that distinction. I made it myself. being mounted alone already gave one 2 bonues.. why 3. unless you were trained to fight ON horseback, or other swiftly mobile mounts.

Soldiers ranked Deca and above have a 30% chance (+25% per rank above Deca) of having one or more magical items and/or magical weapons.


So I calculate that would mean that 4 deca's, 4 Senior Sergeants (80%), and the Lt & captain (>100%) have magic items (10 total), is that right?


that was the intent.. I did stack the percentages that in most cases officers had at least one magic time thus the 100. Obviously the percentage varied per type of banner and the overall eliteness of the division.


So Senior Sgt would be considered 2 ranks above Deca even though there are no basic Sgt's here (ie 80% not 55%, right?)

correct!

1st Company (Brandenburg): 50 elite mounted Light Infantry (F5) armed with short swords, daggers and leather armor+1
...
2nd Company (Gelandeerkundung) - 50 mounted elite Light Infantry (T4) armed with short swords, nets, daggers +1 and leather armor


The +1 daggers, even as a tertiary weapon, I think would meet the requirements to get them the BR bonus, but I'm not sure, does magic armor count?


it did, it was one of the 7 bonuses, as they qualified for the 1% of force equipped with such things...


Well, they get that bonus even without that, I'm questioning whether or not (for other situations, since it doesn't matter here) would a magic armor count towards the "e", "f", & "g" magical bonus's? I think it would, but I'm not sure. The RC specifies "magical weapons (sword +1, arow +2, et al.)" and "wands and other devices". It doesn't say, for example, "magic armor (Leather +2, Shield +1, et al.)" but it does list "magical defenses" (which I take to mean something like prismatic wall or invisibility, but I could also see it being a larger category including both that and magic armors).

yeah.. I tended to be a bit harsh in awarding bonuses since I saw the BR of the Glantrian divisions were already pretty high. I left it as specified i.e. Magic Weapons, Magic Defenses (armor, shields, or natural)


2nd Banner (Blitzkrieg): 120 elite Arcaner Cavalry (M5) armed with slings and staffs, 4 Senior Sergeants (M7); 180 elite Heavy Cavalry (F6) armed with lances, longswords, and full plate armor; 6 Senior Sergeants (F8), 2 Lieutenant (F9, M9), 1 Captain (M11) all riding armored warhorses.


Lineage-wise, they are the former 4th Banner, right?


1st banner, the magical one. Which then added mundane elements into the combined arms force it became during the Great War.


oh.... I'm talking about the great war to present lineage (ie comparing to your previous version). If your going all the way back to the Gaz, then the 1st became the 4th during the great war which then became the 2nd?

3rd Banner (Schwerpunkt):

...

yep

ok

4th Banner (Bogenschütze):

Are they mounted just to have the mobility to keep up with the other banners? Like with the bow-armed cavalry discussion, how might their mobility effect their employment?


exactly.. they are not trained to fight on horseback. Only in terms of mobility and getting where needed as quickly as possible.


yes, I understand the military term "mounted" is assumed to mean "they dismount to fight, being mounted only for movement to a battle, unless specified otherwise in a specific description". It's a bit unusual to have true/proper "Mounted Archers" (most people would confuse the term with Mongolian style Horse-Archers, or Numidian Camel-Archers, or such, who actually do shoot/fight from mount-back. There's relatively few historical examples of true ""mounted archers" who dismount before firing") I was asking if you had any thoughts on how a competent commander might best utilize their mobility during or before a battle? be it in either offense or defense -compared to the more standard un-mounted archers- and thus might want to include that in the italicized text - ultimately it's not needed, the clarification you alread have is good enough, I just wondered if you had something in mind beyond simply "so they can keep up with the other banners" and the meta reason of "to get the division a higher movement stat"

hmmm... I'll think that over. Good point.


whew.... keep up the great feedback Greg. :D


out of time for now.... This took too long. Will have to address the rest later.
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Re: The Grand Army of Glantri.... revised and updated

Postby micky » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:02 am

god what a mess hahah. No more quoting that thing :facepalm:

I thought over the movement dealio some more Greg. I think I had the right idea but approached it the wrong way.

God knows there is no tutorial on the War Machine, no tech support to call, or worse, no examples I'm aware of showing how these bonuses and calculations work. So we have to wing it, or just come to our own notions. The trick is, and I will obviously do, is to be consistent especially when doing what I am doing.. Glantrian v. Ethie...

However back to the movement question. What makes more sense to you. Being this is a system for generating COMBAT resutls.

give two bonuses for troops for being mounted.. yet they do not even fight on them
or 3 bonsues for calvary.. 2 for mounted 1 for movement. Boo Micky. I think I had a backward

For example the 1st division should have gotten case l. It is full mounted. However that is not what we should apply (for combat related bonuses ) for mounted. That should be for those who are trained to fight from mounts and obviously have them

So cavalry units would get 3 bonuses, a,b,l in addition to any other.
non cavalry might get case l if the division is fullly mounted (remember.. movement is based on slowest element so ALL would have to be mounted to qualifiy for case l) Non cavalry might get case a. you figure most wouldn't get both.. or else if would not be a non-Cavalry unit hahha

Anyhow.. that means a revision of the Glantrian BR's. I think I am due a recheck on them all anyway. I'll likely do that in the coming days and post the results, along with the details if you want to double check or debate any.
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Re: The Grand Army of Glantri.... revised and updated

Postby micky » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:15 am

cool.. got half the divisions recalculated today. With notes this time so we can compare and contrast. However in the process.. I couldn't resist the urge to tweak some of the divisions. Half them.. got some tweaking.

Also going to take your input and attempt to simplify the general officer rank structure. Looking again at it, it is a bit too messy. And think I made too good a point in return to your comments haha.
Also will be doing new cost calculations. Needed for the revised divisions, might as well do a double check on all of them.

v.3 upcoming Greg so hold on to those revised v.2 spreadsheets hahaha
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Re: The Grand Army of Glantri.... revised and updated

Postby Leo » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:02 am

Great work Micky. The bonus on movement with regards to war machine rules is not geared towards combat but movement of the unit per day. Marching in mail type of armor would be slower than the Viking's typical battle dress uniforms. Haha. Movement on horseback for almost any military unit will be quicker to move to an engagement or retreat toward a more defensible area. The feet per round equates to miles per day. Same as different seagoing ships and flying stuff. Also to make your skull crack, did you ever make the Dragon Fly Constructs squadron at the capital? We're they destroyed beginning of the WOTI, during the siege of Thar, or after the destruction of Alphatia, or are they still around? The dragonflies construct were Mr. B.H.'s concept for helicopter in the Gazette on the adventure section. Also was in another TSR supplement on Magical items. :lol:
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Re: The Grand Army of Glantri.... revised and updated

Postby micky » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:13 pm

Leo wrote:Great work Micky.

thanks Leo and welcome to the forum..I have put a great deal of time into it. For myself of course, but always nice that anyone might find it of interest

The bonus on movement with regards to war machine rules is not geared towards combat but movement of the unit per day. Marching in mail type of armor would be slower than the Viking's typical battle dress uniforms. Haha. Movement on horseback for almost any military unit will be quicker to move to an engagement or retreat toward a more defensible area. The feet per round equates to miles per day. Same as different seagoing ships and flying stuff.


I could definitely see one of the two sets of bonus's being geared to that.. but both? ohh.. There indeed is IMO a certain combat aspect to having a quick movement rate. Easier to get into and out of trouble. However just from an inuitive view of the War Machine bonus... if case L was merely an extension of cases a, and b.. wouldn't it be C haha. Going by the rule that a unit is only as quick as its slowest element, in order to qualify for case L. It would need to pretty much be 100% mounted. so why have a case L, just make it case C and go with a 75% (or 100%) mounted. Since the two sets were sort of .. separate.. I just went with making case a and b, dependent on ability to fight while mounted, a GREAT tactical advantage worth an extra 2 bonuses IMO. Case L sort of covers the overall movement, and get out of Dodge quickly bonus. Worth 1 bonus. You agree? Or at least see teh rational behind it. Perhaps the rules were not too clear, but I took the different sets (a/b and l) of bonuses to mean.. different quantifiers. I have no idea if this question has ever come up... thank goodness OD&D never descended to ASL (or AD&D haha) kinds of minutia nuttery but it seems like a logical way to interpret a rather loosely written set of rules.


Also to make your skull crack, did you ever make the Dragon Fly Constructs squadron at the capital? We're they destroyed beginning of the WOTI, during the siege of Thar, or after the destruction of Alphatia, or are they still around? The dragonflies construct were Mr. B.H.'s concept for helicopter in the Gazette on the adventure section. Also was in another TSR supplement on Magical items. :lol:

:D Oh yes though... what self respecting Glantrian campaign does not have those awesome things in them. :lol: I have plans for them which are not quite ready to be revealed. The original Gaz3 adventure is written into my Glantrian timeline Almanac.. to be revealed when i get it all posted. It will show up again later in the Great War...
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Re: The Grand Army of Glantri.... revised and updated

Postby micky » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:36 pm

Greg one BIG adjustment I did with v.3 one slight tweak and ...

v.2
1st Corp: Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany
Deputy Commander: Sir Anton Vlaardoen
Cost to Treasury (yr) - 1,022,855.5 dc

v.3
1st Corp: Prince Morphail Gorevitch-Woszlany
Deputy Commander: Sir Anton Vlaardoen
Cost to Treasury (yr) - 768,552.96 dc



just dropped slightly the pay of the arcaner officers and wow.. it seems literally a 3rd to half the entire divisional cost was tied just into the two generals in v.2 if they had wizards as Generals. Still working on the divisional calculations (about halfway done).. but this tweak will free up a lot of ducats for the Treasury (likely close to a million ducats a year)... to more than pay for the GAHC, save some gold (remember while Glantri could afford the 16 v.2 divisions it was close) and yet still pay General officers a boatload of gold. Just not a yachtload as before hahah

Pay Scales of the GAG v.2
Arcaner General Officer - 10dc per level/day
Mundaner General Officer - 5dc per level/day
Arcaner Officer - 5dc per level/day
Mundaner Officer - 1dc per level/day
Senior Arcaner NCO - 1dc per level/day
Senior mundaner NCO - 5sv per level/day
Arcaner NCO - 5sv per level/day
Mundaner NCO - 2sv per level/day
Arcaner Deca - 2sv per level/day
Mundaner Deca - 1sv per level/day
Arcaner Private - 1sv per level/day
Mundaner Private - 3pn per level/day

Pay Scales of the GAG v.3
Arcaner General Officer - 7dc per level/day
Mundaner General Officer - 5dc per level/day
Arcaner Officer - 3dc per level/day
Mundaner Officer - 1dc per level/day
Senior Arcaner NCO - 1dc per level/day
Senior mundaner NCO - 5sv per level/day
Arcaner NCO - 5sv per level/day
Mundaner NCO - 2sv per level/day
Arcaner Deca - 2sv per level/day
Mundaner Deca - 1sv per level/day
Arcaner Private - 1sv per level/day
Mundaner Private - 3pn per level/day
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Re: The Grand Army of Glantri.... revised and updated

Postby micky » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:16 am

and here we go!! v.3. and getting with the 20th century here. Trying out this google drive stuff, perhaps saving posting all this in threads haha

summary of changes.

Simplified rank structure
tweaked wage scales, recalculated divisional costs, and tweaked the economics of the Grand Army section.

Recalculated all the BFR and BR of all the division. Also made some commander level corrections, some were too low, also did some tweaking to the Banners of some units, and lastly did take Greg's feedback into account and scaled down the use of mounted troops. Really only left them for Light Infantry and the elite mobile assault divisions, as well as the Cavalry divisions of course.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByXEHtja6QMrY3hwNWtwMjhLWWs/view?usp=sharing
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Re: The Grand Army of Glantri.... revised and updated

Postby micky » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:39 pm

here are the bases of the BFR and BR numbers for the divisions. Latest updates, corrections made to the document and link above.

Now on to the Ethengarian military...

1st Corp
6th Division -
Leadership 17 (+4) = 21, Experience ((270/42)x3) + ((2640/840)x2) +2 = 27, Training = 52, Equipment 5+5+0=10
BFR-110, 4 bonuses: c,d,e,h
BR - 154

16th Division -
Leadership 14 (+3) = 17, Experience ((247/42)x3) + ((2280/840)x2) +0 = 23, Training = 52, Equipment 5+5+0 = 10
BFR - 102, 5 bonuses: c,d,e,h,i
BR - 152

3rd Division -
Leadership 20 (+6) +2 = 28, Experience ((278/42)x3) + ((2760/840)x2) + 5 = 32, Training = 52, Equipment 10+5+0 = 15
BFR - 127 9 bonuses: a,b,c,e,f,h,i,l
BR - 244

11th Division -
Leadership 19 (+4) = 23, Experience ((264/42)x3) + ((2520/840)x2) + 0 = 25, Training + 52. Equipment 5+5+0 = 10
BFR - 110, 5 bonuses: a,c,d,e,h
BR - 165

2nd Corp
4th Division -
Leadership 18 (+6) +2 = 26, Experience ((289/42)x3) + ((3000/840)x2) +6 = 34, Training = 52, Equipment 10+0+5= 15
BFR - 127, 3 bonuses: c,e,h
BR - 166

9th Division -
Leadership 26 (+6) = 32, Experience ((275/42)x3) + ((2880/840)x2) + 0 = 27, Training = 52, Equipment 5+5+0= 10
BFR - 121, 7 bonuses: a,b,c,d,e,h,l
BR - 205

1st Division -
Leadership 28 (+8) + 2 = 38, Experience ((377/42)x3) + ((3300/840)x2) + 10 = 41, Training = 52, Equipment 15+5+0=20
BFR - 151, 7 bonuses: a,c,d,e,h,j,l
BR - 256

14th Division -
Leadership 15 +5 = 20, Experience ((267/42)x3) + ((2730/840)x2) + 0 + 26, Training = 52, Equipment 5+5+5 = 15
BFR - 111, 5 bonuses: a,c,d,e,h
BR - 166

3rd Corp
2nd Division -
Leadership 15 +6 = 21, Experience ((287/42)x3) + ((2790/840)x2) + 8 = 36, Training = 52, Equipment 10+0+0= 10
BFR - 119, 5 bonuses: c,d,e,h,i
BR - 179

10th Division -
Leadership 16 +4 = 20, Experience ((235/42)x3) + ((1980/840)x2) + 0 = 22, Training = 52, Equipment 5+5+5 = 15
BFR - 109, 3 bonuses: c,d,e
BR - 142

5th Division -
Leadership 24 (+6) + 2 = 32, Experience ((302/42)x3) + ((2940/840)x2) +3 = 32, Training = 52, Equipment 10+5+0= 15
BFR - 131, 8 bonuses: a,b,c,d,e,f,h,l
BR - 235

13th Division -
Leadership 13 +4 = 17, Experience ((236/42)x3) + ((2100/840)x2) + 0 = 22, Training = 52, Equipment 5+5+0 = 10
BFR - 101, 4 bonuses: c,d,e,h
BR - 141

4th Corp
12th Division -
Leadership 16 +4 = 20, Experience ((243/42)x3) + ((2130/840)x2) + 0 = 22, Training = 52, Equipment 5+5+5 = 15
BFR - 109, 5 bonuses: a,c,d,e,h
BR - 164

15th Division -
Leadership 14 + 5 = 19, Experience ((236/42)x3) + (( 2040/840)x2) + 0 = 22, Training = 52, Equipment 5+5+0= 10
BFR - 103, 5 bonuses: c,d,e,h,i
BR - 153

7th Division -
Leadership 20 + 6 = 26, Experience ((260/42)x3) + ((2280/840)x2) + 1 = 25, Training = 52, Equipment 5+5+0 = 10
BFR - 113, 4 bonuses: c,d,e,h
BR - 157

8th Division -
Leadership 11 +2 = 13, Experience ((240/42)x3) + ((2580/840)x2) + 10 = 33, Training + 52, Equipment 15+0+0 = 15, Special = 15
BFR - 128, 10 bonuses: a,b,c,d,e,f,h,i,j,l
BR - 258
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Re: The Grand Army of Glantri.... revised and updated

Postby micky » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:52 pm

on second thought to an earlier thought. Judging how few likely will find the topic of interest. I'll just post everything in this thread.

So let's move on to Ethengar. There really is very little to work with on Ethengar. Not a lot canon, even less fandom that I've seen.

Touched on the population ealrier. Going with a population of around 330k. It is what the PWA gave us, I never did find a hard number in Gaz12.

what else do we know. Ahh.. we have 8 tribes. Are they all equals. Of course not. So I balanced out the population whole between the 8 tribes based on hints given in Gaz12 and some some inuitive sense of stronger to weaker tribes. We also do know Ethengar is a warrior culture capable of mobilzing a huge amount of its population. We will make a third of the population warriors. Thus the 33% max. mobilization. The remainder being women, children, clerics, shamens, and Hakomon (those very dirty and stinking Ethengarian version of Magic users! :lol: :lol: ) Being a warrior culture.. you don't have many dead weighers or paperpushers. So I came up with a percentage breakdown of warriors available to each tribe, and further refined that to differentiate between militant and more peaceful tribes.
Also I drew up 3 distinct levels of mobilization

selective: say a war between tribes or a major raid into foreign countries

full mobilization: say for a war against a foreign country. Like the invasion of Heldannic Territories during the WotI

then there is the complete mobilization: in case of a war to the death, extermination in the attack or a existential threat in the defense, or perhaps needed for a Great Khan's stupid idea to invade a country with several times their population, occupying strong defenses on terrain not suited to horse warriors, having the perhaps the best Army in whole Known World, and oh... also possessing far more magical firepower than the Khanates could imagine

So here is what I came up with

The Hordes of the Khanates
Population 333,000
8 Tribes: Strongest to Weakest Population/maximum deployment (30-33%). Militant Tribes in bold

Militant Tribes have a breakdown of 5% above F3, 30% F3, 30% F2, and 35% F1 of eligible population
Less Militant tribes have a breakdown of 2% above F3, 23% F3, 25% F2, and 50% F1 of eligible population

Murkits: 49,000
Selective mobilization -> 11%: 5390 troops = 5 hordes of 1050
Full mobilization -> 22%: 10,780 troops = 10 hordes of 1050
Emergency mobilization -> 33%: 16,170 troops = 15 hordes of 1050
808 above F3, 4841 F3, 4841 F2, 5660 F1

Bortaks: 48,000
Selective mobilization -> 11%: 5280 troops = 5 hordes of 1050
Full mobilization -> 22%: 10,560 troops = 10 hordes of 1050
Emergency mobilization -> 33%: 15,840 troops = 15 hordes of 1050
792 above F3, 4752 F3, 4752 F2, 5544 F1

Kaeruts: 42,000
Selective mobilization -> 11%: 4620 troops = 4 hordes of 1050
Full mobilization -> 22%: 9240 troops = 8 hordes of 1050
Emergency mobilization -> 33%: 13,860 troops = 13 hordes of 1050
277 above F3, 3188 F3, 3465 F2, 6930 F1

Yugatais: 42,000
Selective mobilization -> 11%: 4620 troops = 4 hordes of 1050
Full mobilization -> 22%: 9240 troops = 8 hordes of 1050
Emergency mobilization -> 33%: 13,860 troops = 13 hordes of 1050
693 above F3, 4158 F3, 4158 F2, 4851 F1

Uighurs: 40,000
Selective mobilization -> 11%: 4400 troops = 4 hordes of 1050
Full mobilization -> 22%: 8800 troops = 8 hordes of 1050
Emergency mobilization -> 33%: 13,200 troops = 12 hordes of 1050
660 above F3, 3960 F3, 3960 F2, 4620 F1

Kiyats: 39,000
Selective mobilization -> 11%: 4290 troops = 4 hordes of 1050
Full mobilization -> 22%: 8580 troops = 8 hordes of 1050
Emergency mobilization -> 33%: 12,870 troops = 12 hordes of 1050
257 above F3, 2960 F3, 3218 F2, 6435 F1

Yakkas: 37,000
Selective mobilization -> 11%: 4070 troops = 4 hordes of 1050
Full mobilization -> 22%: 8140 troops = 7 hordes of 1050
Emergency mobilization -> 33%: 12,210 troops = 11 hordes of 1050
244 above F3, 2808 F3, 3053 F2, 6105 F1

Taijits: 36,000
Selective mobilization -> 11%: 3960 troops = 3 hordes of 1050
Full mobilization -> 22%: 7920 troops = 7 hordes of 1050
Emergency mobilization -> 33%: 11,880 troops = 11 hordes of 1050
238 above F3, 2732 F3, 2970 F2, 5940 F1

102 total Hordes of 1050 = 107,100 troops plus 1050 Keshak = 108,150 horse warriors availabe to Ethengar


too high too low? any feedback out there. If not that is what I am going with
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Re: The Grand Army of Glantri.... revised and updated

Postby Leo » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:37 pm

I believe a little low. According to the Gaz.12, the leader of the Keshak is a female. This maybe an anomaly, but if my memory is correct, the PWAs also have women and men as part of the population to obtain warriors. Also I think before the war with H.K. during the war WOTI, the Murkis population would've larger. Before AC 1000, the Murkits as a tribe defeated and exterminated 2 other tribes. The women, artisans,and boys smaller than a wagon wheel were not killed. This in my opinion, was a major reason that other tribes declared M. Golden Khan. Many new tribe members,either by age or birth in the next decade at most. Just am not sure even with the %15 death from plague and number of deaths in HK war and losses during Glantri war. Also I don't remember about slavery in the GAZ, however in RW kidnapping and slavery were common. It also depends on your view as what is next for the Tribes. Behind sandwiched between the HK and Glantri may cause their downfall as a people. In RW they were allies of one side of 2 Chinese dynasties. Easier to learn about warfare and politics, just like when Wogar and other tribe were at war at the beginning of the horsemen culture of the Ethies. Also RW, most of Mongol victories were against superior numerical and better quality of weapons. Fear and overconfidence are always tools to use against an ones enemy.
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Re: The Grand Army of Glantri.... revised and updated

Postby micky » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:34 am

good points.

The goal of course is to TRY to replicate the famed Mongol hordes with the Ethies. They have to offset one obvious thing that their real life inspirations didn't have to overcome.. a bunch of crazy redheaded broads throwing fireballs ever time you look at them crosseyed .. or simply work late or forget to empty the dishwasher haha

However I am sort of hamstrung by the numbers. Total pop and the % available. That 33% is a HIGH number.. likely does include women as well. If the goal is to create an Ethie army that can stand toe to toe.. much less drive back the Grand Army of Glantri it needs help. A lot of help which there isn't a great deal of basis for giving. Of course I could fudge them a bit..overall population and percentage available but perhaps the best fix to bump up the percentage distribution of experienced warriors. Make F3' and F4s the standard troop type.. but then again.. it really wouldn't make that much difference in War Machine terms. It is hard to compete with the Glantrians in W.M. terms due to the heavy magical components which add so much to the BR.

I have a few ideas in mind to counterbalance the strength of the Glantrian Army against the Ethies to make a 1015 invasion more plausible and not a simple slaughter at the borders.. much less attempt to get close to to climatic battle of Glantri City the almanac gave us.

The first of course is it has to be a surprise attack.. given time to prepare. Like the 6 months the Almanac gave Glantri.. they field a trained and experience army of 100,000 warriors and wizards to defend.. 1, 1, 3.
5 possible 8 mile hexes into the heard of Glantri through the Colossus Mounts.

Ain't happened...

Matching the maximum mobiization the Ethies could manage.. even odds. Bad news since using the BR table.. the Ethies need substantial odds. at least 5-1 tactically to get break even odds in combat due to the dispargenices of the BR's of the divisions involved. It was 13-1 in terms of the 3 elite Glantrian divisions.
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Re: Ethengar Hordes

Postby Gecko » Tue May 30, 2017 12:30 am

I've been reading the Ethengar Gaz recently so it's good timing that I come back to this thread as you are starting to talk about Ethengar. I definately want to return to the Glantrian BR calculations when I have time, but for now just looking at the new Ethengar stuff, the Gaz has:

a Akan leads a Argam (10)
a Dakan leads a Dagam (100)
a Orkhan leads a Mingam (1000)

So what is an Argam? Is it 10* Horse warriors AND the Akan OR is it 10* Horse Warriors INCLUDING the Akan? And note (*) one of the ten is frequently a Bratak - which I would let use the scouting rules, though there is also said to be Bratak only Argam's. It also says an Argam is frequently as small as 7, but implies that it is never more than 10. Likewise a Dagam & Mingam can have as few as 7 subunits, but that is not ideal. The Gaz makes several mentions to that being their military organization and the benefits of it.

The WarMachine stats in the gaz then give a horde (and the Keshak) as consisting of 10 sub-Units (equivalent to the "Dagams" apparently), but each with 4 Sgts & a capt, along with an overall Commander and Deputy Commander, but that does not agree with either method from above (unless you say only some of the Akan's count as "Sergeants", AND that the other Akan's make up the differences in the understrength Argams? and then who is this deputy commander? an 11th Dakan?).

In any event, I take it that you get your 1050 to a horde number from the warmachine stats counting the 40 Sgts & 10 Capts?
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Speed & Mounted bonus's, Training

Postby Gecko » Tue May 30, 2017 1:52 am

One thing worth mentioning- in BECMI/OD&D an unencumbered character moves at 120' on foot, so light forces would get the speed bonus ("l") - It's not just for mounted forces.

Does that fact change your thinking on the issue?

regarding Training I'm afraid I have to completely disagree with you. If they were the same, there would be no need for seperate entries for "time training" and "time on duty". While time on duty would include some basic routine drilling and/or individual qualifications studiying for a small part of the day, it's not the same as an all-day or multi day focus on unit training. "Training" is not just done during Basic, it would be actual additional instruction time, partaking in training or qualifying exercises, or attending a training center (ie NTC @ Ft. Irwin?). And the section in the RC specifically says training time costs double (overhead and logistics I suppose - I recently read an article about what goes into preparing just a shooting range for a NG unit to come in for a weekend of basic marksmanship qualification).

Edit here's the article about what it takes just to get 235 national guard soldiers through 2 days of just basic marksmanship qualification.
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