Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

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Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Big Mac » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:55 am

Does anyone know of a website where I can find any third edition conversions for Kara-Tur?

Failing that, does anyone know of a website that has notes for adapting Oriental Adventures (back) to Kara-Tur?
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Dragonhelm » Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:20 pm

Wasn't there a Dragon magazine article covering Kara-Tur for 3.5? One of the campaign classics issues, I think.
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by night_druid » Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:59 am

Kind of a silly question, but what'd need to be converted that isn't covered in 3e OA? I'd imagine there's some critters, but beyond that?
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Big Mac » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:22 pm

Sorry for the delay.
Dragonhelm wrote:Wasn't there a Dragon magazine article covering Kara-Tur for 3.5? One of the campaign classics issues, I think.
I don't know. I never read Dragon.
night_druid wrote:Kind of a silly question, but what'd need to be converted that isn't covered in 3e OA? I'd imagine there's some critters, but beyond that?
I haven't got the faintest idea what would need converting, unfortunately.

I can get the monsters from the Creature Catalogue and I can find out the missing monsters from Echohawk's list of D&D creatures, but I guess I'm going to need to buy all the Kara-Tur stuff and Oriental Adventures and then make some sort of cross-reference list that tells me what has been done. At the end of that process, I should be able to work out what is missing.

I was hoping that someone else had run a 3rd edition Kara-Tur game and had already done this for me. :D
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Cthulhudrew » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:11 pm

Dragonhelm wrote:Wasn't there a Dragon magazine article covering Kara-Tur for 3.5? One of the campaign classics issues, I think.
The only one that I can think of offhand is a 3.5 article on the Hordelands for FR (#349). There are several Dragon Magazine indexes online that might give some more of an idea of Kara-Tur articles, though.
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Big Mac » Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:03 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Dragonhelm wrote:Wasn't there a Dragon magazine article covering Kara-Tur for 3.5? One of the campaign classics issues, I think.
The only one that I can think of offhand is a 3.5 article on the Hordelands for FR (#349). There are several Dragon Magazine indexes online that might give some more of an idea of Kara-Tur articles, though.
This appeared in the Does anyone use Kara Tur? thread:
Philosopher wrote:
wtrmute wrote:On the flip side, if you get the 1e material for the fluff, the conversion of the crunch is all done in OA3e (well, I suppose you'd have to update it to 3.5).
FWIW, Dragon #318 had a 3.5 update of OA. It wasn't complete, but it had the basics.
So it looks like this magazine and the original Oriental Adventures gives a large part of the conversion material. I'm going to need to study the old school Kara-Tur stuff (or find a friendly old school Kara-Tur player) to work out how much extra stuff I need to find elsewhere.
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Big Mac » Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:09 pm

night_druid wrote:Kind of a silly question, but what'd need to be converted that isn't covered in 3e OA? I'd imagine there's some critters, but beyond that?
Thinking about this some more, I need to see how the divine magic (and maybe the arcane magic) system from Kara-Tur works. The SJ boxed set mentions the religion known as The Path and The Way, and I need a 3rd edition version of that. But if there are any other religions, I need them too. Legends and Lore mentions a Celestial Bureaucracy (I don't have it with me, so can't remember if it was in the Chinese or Japanese section). I'd love to see if Kara-Tur has a pantheonistic religion similar to the Celestial Bureaucracy.

I also want to find out more about Ki. My only gaming experience with Ki Power has been at LARP games. I've never used D&D Ki.
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by night_druid » Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:13 pm

Big Mac wrote:Thinking about this some more, I need to see how the divine magic (and maybe the arcane magic) system from Kara-Tur works.
I'd go with "it just works". Fancy explainations to how magic works only creates the situation where everything must exist in isolation to everything else. :P

The SJ boxed set mentions the religion known as The Path and The Way, and I need a 3rd edition version of that. But if there are any other religions, I need them too. Legends and Lore mentions a Celestial Bureaucracy (I don't have it with me, so can't remember if it was in the Chinese or Japanese section). I'd love to see if Kara-Tur has a pantheonistic religion similar to the Celestial Bureaucracy.
Celestial Bureaucracy is Chinese, IIRC.
I also want to find out more about Ki. My only gaming experience with Ki Power has been at LARP games. I've never used D&D Ki.
Should be covered under classes. If not, a set of feats works as well.
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Big Mac » Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:55 pm

night_druid wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Thinking about this some more, I need to see how the divine magic (and maybe the arcane magic) system from Kara-Tur works.
I'd go with "it just works". Fancy explainations to how magic works only creates the situation where everything must exist in isolation to everything else. :P
A lot of people go with the "it just works". If you are staying within the campaign setting, that logic is fine, but if you want to link Kara-Tur with another campaign setting *cough* Spelljammer *cough* you need to work out the implications of what happens to divine spellcasters from Kara-Tur when you take them to another crystal sphere...er I mean campaign setting. :P
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by night_druid » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:06 pm

Big Mac wrote:A lot of people go with the "it just works". If you are staying within the campaign setting, that logic is fine, but if you want to link Kara-Tur with another campaign setting *cough* Spelljammer *cough* you need to work out the implications of what happens to divine spellcasters from Kara-Tur when you take them to another crystal sphere...er I mean campaign setting. :P
Or Planescape. Or portals to FR/GH/<insert favorite world here>. ;)
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Jadeite » Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:36 pm

Dragon 315 had ancestor feats for the nations of Kara-tur, as well as a short description of each of the nations.

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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Big Mac » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:27 pm

Thanks Jadeite.

I guess I'll have to buy some Dragon mags. :?
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Azaghal » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:13 am

Regarding Ki: IIRC the 1e Ki from the original OA book and the 2e/Kara-Tur Ki were set up some what differently, it has been over 20 years since I looked at this stuff. The original OA book had some really fun character creation stuff in it.
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Big Mac » Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:24 am

Azaghal wrote:Regarding Ki: IIRC the 1e Ki from the original OA book and the 2e/Kara-Tur Ki were set up some what differently, it has been over 20 years since I looked at this stuff. The original OA book had some really fun character creation stuff in it.
Do you know if the 3e OA book has Ki?
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Azaghal » Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:32 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Azaghal wrote:Regarding Ki: IIRC the 1e Ki from the original OA book and the 2e/Kara-Tur Ki were set up some what differently, it has been over 20 years since I looked at this stuff. The original OA book had some really fun character creation stuff in it.
Do you know if the 3e OA book has Ki?

No clue, but I could find out easily enough I guess.
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by ripvanwormer » Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:23 pm

Big Mac wrote: I'd love to see if Kara-Tur has a pantheonistic religion similar to the Celestial Bureaucracy.
They do, by the way, and they even call it the Celestial Bureaucracy. It's not exactly the Chinese pantheon, but it's inspired by it.

Pulling out a module at random, Mad Monkey vs. Dragon Claw: "Mad Monkey is one of the most powerful figures outside the Celestial Bureaucracy..." "Lung Jua is a petty demon within the Celestial Bureaucracy..." "The yau-mor is a servant of those most evil members of the Celestial Bureaucracy..." "Bauhei, the Black Leopard, is one of the old spirits who date back to the ancient times before the Celestial Bureaucracy, before the time of the Nine Immortals... with the triumph of the Celestial Bureaucracy, the Black Leopard lost most of his power..."

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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Azaghal » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:26 pm

The 3.5 OA book which is for Rokogan does not have Ki.
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by ripvanwormer » Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:19 pm

Complete Adventurer did in the description of the ninja class, though. And the Player's Handbook did in the description of the monk class.

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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Azaghal » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:44 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Complete Adventurer did in the description of the ninja class, though. And the Player's Handbook did in the description of the monk class.
Grrrr!!! You've got to love inconsistencies! Is there a way to compare 1e Ki to 3e Ki?
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Big Mac » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:29 am

ripvanwormer wrote:
Big Mac wrote: I'd love to see if Kara-Tur has a pantheonistic religion similar to the Celestial Bureaucracy.
They do, by the way, and they even call it the Celestial Bureaucracy. It's not exactly the Chinese pantheon, but it's inspired by it.
I guess that a Celestial Bureacracy is the "core" way that the relgion of oriental D&D is supposed to be played. If someone was to build/rebuild an Oriental Adventures for Greyhawk, they should probably put the same setup there.
ripvanwormer wrote:Pulling out a module at random, Mad Monkey vs. Dragon Claw: "Mad Monkey is one of the most powerful figures outside the Celestial Bureaucracy..." "Lung Jua is a petty demon within the Celestial Bureaucracy..." "The yau-mor is a servant of those most evil members of the Celestial Bureaucracy..." "Bauhei, the Black Leopard, is one of the old spirits who date back to the ancient times before the Celestial Bureaucracy, before the time of the Nine Immortals... with the triumph of the Celestial Bureaucracy, the Black Leopard lost most of his power..."
Sounds like this is an essential part of a 3e Kara-Tur conversion (and by extension a 3e Spelljammer conversion).
Azaghal wrote:The 3.5 OA book which is for Rokogan does not have Ki.
:(
Azaghal wrote:
ripvanwormer wrote:Complete Adventurer did in the description of the ninja class, though. And the Player's Handbook did in the description of the monk class.
Grrrr!!! You've got to love inconsistencies! Is there a way to compare 1e Ki to 3e Ki?
I'm definately going to need to buy old books, so I can compare and contrast both versions of Ki.

My guess is that the changes will be on the same sort of level as the psionics rules. So a 3e conversion might be as "different" as the 1e, 2e and 3e psionics rules.
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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by ripvanwormer » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:31 am

Big Mac wrote:I guess that a Celestial Bureacracy is the "core" way that the relgion of oriental D&D is supposed to be played. If someone was to build/rebuild an Oriental Adventures for Greyhawk, they should probably put the same setup there.

Sounds like this is an essential part of a 3e Kara-Tur conversion (and by extension a 3e Spelljammer conversion).
Definitely. And note the description of the Path and the Way in The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook. Page 81.

"The Path and the Way postulates a celestial bureaucracy, well managed and organized, with various Powers taking on particular duties within the organization rather than venerating any specific deity... Thus, a cleric of the Path and the Way from Realmspace who believes that Ao holds the supreme position within the celestial bureaucracy has the same powers in Greyspace as a native priest who believes that role is occupied by Boccob. Moreover, two priests of the same pantheon may disagree in assigning Powers to celestial roles. None of this debate has any effect on their clerical powers."

Note that in 1st edition Oriental Adventures, the Way and the Path of Enlightenment were listed as separate faiths, although not mutually exclusive ones. "Each is distinct, teaching enlightenment, perfection, and salvation according to its own methods. Each believes it is the correct path. However, in practice, few common people follow the beliefs of strictly one religion."

Besides the Path and the Way, there's also "the Eight Million Gods, ancestor worship, the cult of the state, and more."
I'm definately going to need to buy old books, so I can compare and contrast both versions of Ki.
Well, I could do it. Ki in 3e is relevant only to a few class abilities, rather than a force utilized by all character classes. You can learn everything there is to know about 3e ki by looking at the descriptions of the monk and ninja classes (and, I just noticed, the sohei class in 3rd edition Oriental Adventures has an ability called ki frenzy, and the wu jen class mentions ki, so there's no inconsistency. We know it's supernatural (which means it can be dispelled by the same things that dispel magic), it can be used to increase the amount of unarmed damage done, and that it can overcome weapon resistances just as magic weapons can.

The ninja class in Complete Adventurer has the following ki power, more complex than any other:
Ki Power (Su): A ninja can channel her ki to manifest
special powers of stealth and mobility. She can use her
ki powers a number of times per day equal to one-half
her class level (minimum 1) plus her Wisdom bonus (if
any). Ki powers can be used only if a ninja is wearing no
armor and is unencumbered.

As long as a ninja’s ki pool isn’t empty (that is, as long
as she has at least one daily use remaining), she gains a
+2 bonus on her Will saves.

A ninja’s ki powers are ghost step, ki dodge, ghost strike,
greater ki dodge, and ghost walk. Each power is described
under a separate entry below.
In first edition, ki was also tied to class abilities, and seems essentially the same. Though the first edition ninja didn't have any ki powers, just mundane skills like disguise and assassination.

"Through training with his particular weapon and his mental practice, a kensai learns to focus his ki power. This lets him cause maximum damage with a single attack when using his specialized weapon... At 11th level the kensai can make a whirlwind attack. This is an additional ki power. The kensai concentrates his bodily energy and bursts into a blurring whirlwind of motion. This ability requires all the character's ki power for the day."

"At 1st level monks have the ki power to reduce the amount of damage caused by magical attacks... At 7th level the monk, by concentrating his inner power, can heal 2-5 points of damage on his own body per day."

"At 1st level the samurai begins the art of focusing his ki (the energy of his body). By concentrating on his breathing and using a kiai (a loud, fierce shout), the samurai increases his Strength score to 18/00. The effect lasts only one round." (Note that the version of the samurai class in Complete Warrior had this ability too, though the kiai strike isn't explicitly credited to "focusing his ki" there, and the 3.5 edition kiai strike gives a bonus to attack and damage equal to a charisma bonus instead of giving the character a new strength score - also, note that the 3.5 edition kiai strike isn't supernatural like a monk's or ninja's ki powers are).

"Shukenja also are trained to draw upon their ki to protect themselves in dangerous situations. A shukenja can focus his ki to physically and mentally resist an attack."

"At 3rd level the sohei, through religious training and practice, can focus his ki power. Knowing that he is among the chosen, this fills his body with berserk energy and disdain for his own life..." (essentially the same as barbarian rage in 3rd edition, but credited to ki - the 3rd edition sohei has the same ability)

"To learn his spells, a wu jen puts himself through a strict regimen of mental training. He learns to meditate like a shukenja. He develops his ki powers to gain several abilities. By focusing his ki, he can burst into sudden action once per day. At 4th level a wu jen gains his second ki power--the ability to summon massive magical energies. This allows him to cast any one spell that is three or more levels lower than the wu jen's level, at maximum effect." (Note that the 3rd edition Oriental Adventures has the "sudden action" ability too, and it's also credited to focusing their ki; the "summon massive magical energies" ability from 1st edition became metamagic feats in 3rd edition, but with essentially the same result).

The ki powers of the samurai and wu jen class in 1st edition OA also appeared in the samurai and wu jen kits in The Complete Fighter's Handbook and The Complete Wizard's Handbook for 2nd edition... but the word "ki" wasn't used. The powers were basically identical, however.

There were also "psychic duels" that any 1e OA class could engage in, though this isn't connected to ki, and might not even be supernatural. "The psychic duel is a type of mental combat that can be practiced by any character race or class. It does not require psionic talent. It is a test of the wills of the duelists-- their courage, skill, and determination. It is an invisible fight, the outcome revealed by a faint grimace, the flicker of an eyelid, or the tic of a muscle." Basically, it seems psychological - the two combatants try to psych each other out.

In summary, I think ki in D&D is exactly like any other supernatural power in D&D. A barbarian's rage is ki, a monk's supernatural strike is ki,and probably a paladin's ability to detect evil and lay on hands could be blamed on ki, if you wanted to. It's defined as "the energy of your body," but that's just a matter of flavor. A shukenja in 3rd edition's Oriental Adventures is said to "focus the power of the elements through their bodies and produce magical effects" - well, that's bodily energy, so that's ki, even if they don't call it that. If a wu jen's bonus metamagic feats are ki, then all metamagic feats are ki, or might as well be.

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Re: Kara-Tur 3rd edition conversion?

Post by Big Mac » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:09 am

Thanks for this. I just bought (the 1e) Oriental Adventures, so I'll have to start looking this up.
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