Races for The Edge

We left our old worlds, each of us. This is it. We can't go any farther. This is The Edge.
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Races for The Edge

Post by cab » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:35 pm

MODERATOR NOTE (by Big Mac): "Piazzaworld" was an old working title for "The Edge" and is no longer used. This thread is being renamed from "Races for Piazzaworld" to "Races for The Edge" for clarity.

Regarding Thorfs not-so-insane idea...

I think a good starting point is to pick out races appropriate for playing (and other intelligent races) in this new world.

To begin with...

Human (and all variants thereof present in the real world, plus an albino race from deep underground because I've always wanted to develop one of those).

Elf
Variants - wood, high, 'dark' (being something close to a drow or shadow elf, something mysterious from underground), and assorted ethnicities of elves from different regions.

Dwarf
Variants - I like the idea of having a Norse variant, something rather dark and brooding.

Halfling
Variants - Could we perhaps keep away from the hobbit cliches here?

Gnome -
Variants - Here I'd like to suggest that there could be four sub-races, each linked in some way to an element.

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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by Chimpman » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:20 pm

cab wrote:Human (and all variants thereof present in the real world, plus an albino race from deep underground because I've always wanted to develop one of those).
...
Dwarf
Variants - I like the idea of having a Norse variant, something rather dark and brooding.
Hmmm... what would you say to combining these two ideas? Albino dwarves... It could give them a reason to be underground, as well as a reason to be jealous of the surface races. Add a little tension to the relationships between dwarves and others, and give them the dark and brooding edge that you mention above. White haired, red eyed, and thoroughly cranky. ;)

I've had the idea of using neanderthals in a campaign for a while as well. Something to take the place of the half-orc. In the real world it is likely that the arrival of modern humans drove these creatures to extinction, but on Piazzaworld The Edge perhaps the humans absorbed them into their own society as a sort of slave/servant class.
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by Idabrius » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:50 pm

Well, I think we need to decide if we're going for the sort of refugee feeling for Piazzaworld The Edge. If so, the races can be more outlandish and bizzare. I would caution against creating an overarching style of race and rather I think we should focus on individual cultural expressions - ie, not just "Magic Elves" but rather elves from a mageocracy with specific traits, etc.
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by cab » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:56 pm

Chimpman wrote: Hmmm... what would you say to combining these two ideas? Albino dwarves... It could give them a reason to be underground, as well as a reason to be jealous of the surface races. Add a little tension to the relationships between dwarves and others, and give them the dark and brooding edge that you mention above. White haired, red eyed, and thoroughly cranky. ;)

I've had the idea of using neanderthals in a campaign for a while as well. Something to take the place of the half-orc. In the real world it is likely that the arrival of modern humans drove these creatures to extinction, but on Piazzaworld The Edge perhaps the humans absorbed them into their own society as a sort of slave/servant class.
No problem with either of those ideas :)

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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by cab » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:00 pm

Idabrius wrote:Well, I think we need to decide if we're going for the sort of refugee feeling for Piazzaworld The Edge. If so, the races can be more outlandish and bizzare. I would caution against creating an overarching style of race and rather I think we should focus on individual cultural expressions - ie, not just "Magic Elves" but rather elves from a mageocracy with specific traits, etc.
I agree that the final picture is more complex than I'm painting, I'm just trying to get a starting point going. And while obviously the whole 'refugee' or 'piazza' thing makes for a more complex pot of races, you still need a starting, thematic treatment of the endemic species.

And yes, I also agree that you need to put cultural traits on races (magocracy elves and specific traits etc.) but I thought I'd start with simpler overall races and ethnicities first; ground up design, get the biology in place and follow with culture. Just seems a natrual starting point for a collaborative project.

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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by night_druid » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:10 pm

The best place to start may be a nice big city, set on some major trade routes so that its a major crossroads where all these wondrous races congregate.
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by Chimpman » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:24 pm

Idabrius wrote:Well, I think we need to decide if we're going for the sort of refugee feeling for Piazzaworld The Edge.
I agree with cab that we need some place to start, but the above point is taken. If Piazzaworld The Edge is a planar hub of sorts, then the whole race thing could potentially go out the window. Again, it all depends on how we want to handle it. Here are the options I'm seeing (and I'm sure that this is not all inclusive):

1) The races all developed on Piazzaworld The Edge. The argument here would be to limit the number of sentient races and come up with enough room for them to all develop civilizations. At some point in the world history they find one another and begin to interact. From a playability point of view it makes sense to have as many options as possible so that players can put together varied character parties and the whole thing doesn't become monotonous, so each of the races should get along tolerably at least (which is not to say that cultures/nations will get along).

2) Many of the races (and potentially all of them) developed off world and came to Piazzaworld The Edge through gate/planar portal/or some equivalent. This allows us to add just about any race/culture anywhere on the planet that we want. We can come up with all kinds of combinations and options if we go this route.

3) A variant of #2 above, but there are a limited number of home planes for a limited number of races. We can still develop any number of unique cultures, but the race choices are more limited. It's possible to have variants of any given race as over time they could have been changed physically by their environments, but at the core there are only a handful of races. When we start to delve into the planes, the homeworlds for each race would probably be dominated by only that race.

Personally I'm more inclined to choose options 1 or 3... but I wouldn't mind working on something like option 2 as well. And of course there may be options I haven't considered yet. If so, let's talk about them.
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by happylarry » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:51 pm

for me, the elves crashed through at some point in the past - whetehr via portal from space, from a parallel universe, from a different universe - or just in really big sexy space ships (my preferred option) which crashed into the planet destroying the current civilisation - of say the 6th age or something, which was dominated by a great goblinoid empire or some peaceful philosopher sentient dinasour types, or something.

then the elves split into races - wood = rejection of past get on with this world; dark = magic/technology something or others living underground in the remnants of the BSSS (=big sexy space ships) or in bits of them; high = not at peace with the world they find themselves in.

perhaps the elves become magical (and I really think they shouldn't just be 5' humans who live a long time) by virtue of coming from elsewhere.

also - how about human beings being a very recent arrival / invention / evolution, often viewed as a pest or parasite by longer term / longer lived races.

also - how about the goblins as having fallen far from a noble past by dabbling in some really nasty planar / technology stuff (heh - why not both)

right. I'm creatively exhausted so I'm posting now

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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by night_druid » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:57 pm

Btw, there doesn't need to be a single source for any given race. It might possible (maybe even preferrible) to have multiple origins. Say the elves of Skywood came to our little world aboard ships that crashed. On another continenet, a group of elves stepped through a magic portal and founded the nation of Nightshade. Both "elves", two different origins.
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by Idabrius » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:13 pm

I'd like to posit a suggestion that may help us shape this setting a bit. Perhaps the world is not very hospitable- perhaps in places, downright hostile (Shallow seas of silty brine, vast volcanic chasms). In fact, perhaps this place is an End-place, a sort of last gasp of an endless magical cosmos, where those with the magic or the technology have escaped to. Various cataclysms of all sorts may have destroyed their home planes, rendering portals or other methods of transportation risky. Eg, the Skywood elves could try to return home, but it is now a boiling wasteland.

The reason I suggest this is twofold - first, it would impact the kinds of races that we see (I'd like to see some standard fantasy stereotypes turned on their heads, sort of in the way Dark Sun aged a semi-standard fantasy setting). Secondly, it would imply a level of anachronism not present in most D&D settings; magic and machine can exist alongside, though I'd prefer the weight to be on magic. My own thinking on this is that magic itself is a crutch for more scientific pursuits. Why not build a magical ship-engine to power a flying vessel rather than a scientifically based one?

Anyway, that's my thought for the moment.
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by happylarry » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:33 pm

night druid wrote:
Btw, there doesn't need to be a single source for any given race.
yep - can see that working. does that mean I can have the elves with the BSSS?
Idabrius wrote:
Perhaps the world is not very hospitable- perhaps in places, downright hostile (Shallow seas of silty brine, vast volcanic chasms). In fact, perhaps this place is an End-place, a sort of last gasp of an endless magical cosmos, where those with the magic or the technology have escaped to. Various cataclysms of all sorts may have destroyed their home planes, rendering portals or other methods of transportation risky. Eg, the Skywood elves could try to return home, but it is now a boiling wasteland.
Yes - but this is going to be a big world - so how about some really hospitable places as well? Perhaps some of the arriving races / origin races have managed to create a 'paradise', and keep it through magic or something

and perhaps even have some real 'magic kingdom' places - Camelot- like. I would like to see some proper heroic knights - (even if they are goblins)

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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by Idabrius » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:38 pm

happylarry wrote:[
Yes - but this is going to be a big world - so how about some really hospitable places as well? Perhaps some of the arriving races / origin races have managed to create a 'paradise', and keep it through magic or something

and perhaps even have some real 'magic kingdom' places - Camelot- like. I would like to see some proper heroic knights - (even if they are goblins)
Agreed - perhaps perched precariously close to the inhospitable ones, kept safe by wards and spells.
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by night_druid » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:49 pm

happylarry wrote:yep - can see that working. does that mean I can have the elves with the BSSS?
<shrug> What does BSSS mean? ;) But basically I have a feeling this will end up a shared world sorta like Marvel's universe, not the forgotten realms. ;)

Yes - but this is going to be a big world - so how about some really hospitable places as well? Perhaps some of the arriving races / origin races have managed to create a 'paradise', and keep it through magic or something

and perhaps even have some real 'magic kingdom' places - Camelot- like. I would like to see some proper heroic knights - (even if they are goblins)
I'd imagine we'll have lots of terrains. I'm ok if overall the planet is inhospitable, but with small areas of paradise. Our world is already pretty much like that now. :)
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by Chimpman » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:00 pm

Idabrius wrote:I'd like to posit a suggestion that may help us shape this setting a bit. Perhaps the world is not very hospitable- perhaps in places, downright hostile (Shallow seas of silty brine, vast volcanic chasms). In fact, perhaps this place is an End-place, a sort of last gasp of an endless magical cosmos, where those with the magic or the technology have escaped to. Various cataclysms of all sorts may have destroyed their home planes, rendering portals or other methods of transportation risky. Eg, the Skywood elves could try to return home, but it is now a boiling wasteland.
I know I'm straying a bit off topic here (maybe we can break this out into a separate discussion?), but I think what I'm hearing is that we need a mission statement before continuing. Some phrase that sums up our campaign world in one or a few sentences, and that we can use to build on for the rest of the world. What makes our world unique? Why do characters in the world go on adventures? Why would players want to actually play here?

For example, Eberron's campaign theme (and I'm paraphrasing here) was something along the lines of "D&D meets film noir meets Indiana Jones". Right away you can tell that this is a cinematic campaign filled with intrigue, lost wonders, and the treasure hunters who seek them.

So what is our campaign world's theme? Tying to distill Idabrius' idea I might say something like, "D&D meets Terminator, and Shangri-la"

We get a sense that there is a real reason people came to our world - because they were escaping something (a good hook for us to develop later). It gives all of our vastly different races and cultures something in common. We also get a sense of either trying to find or create paradise in this new world. Perhaps there is a drive to protect this world from whatever is "out there". There may be ancient and powerful races on the world that have been in hiding for thousands of years and don't wish to draw attention to it. Perhaps they seek to stop younger races from coming here by tampering with magic and shutting down the portals or whatever. Instant reasons for adventures.
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by Havard » Fri May 01, 2009 1:44 pm

I like the idea of ancient and hidden races wishing to keep the newcomers out of the new world.

I also think it could be interesting to create a defining evil race, or maybe a series of evil races that could possibly replace Orcs and goblins. This is a simple way of making a statement about what sets the world apart from other settings.

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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by maddog » Fri May 01, 2009 6:16 pm

Havard wrote:I also think it could be interesting to create a defining evil race, or maybe a series of evil races that could possibly replace Orcs and goblins. This is a simple way of making a statement about what sets the world apart from other settings.
We should keep the old skool beasties if we do. Especially if the theme of "gates from other places" is used.
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by Seer of Yhog » Mon May 04, 2009 7:31 pm

I think we should have some old favourites, race-wise, but I really think we should throw in some unconvential races, too. Something that would force us to create cultures with surprising and/or alien mindsets. This would pose an entertaining challenge for roleplayers. Plus, strange races breed interesting abilities, which would appeal to "roll-players" as well. Let's face it, we need to appeal to both markets.

Here's my suggestion:

Humans (many ethnicities - not all of which need to be linked to RW cultures). Humans are often portrayed as being the youngest race - maybe it's time to present a world where it's the humans who are the elder race in decline. Given concerns about climate change, etc., this may resonate with younger people.

Dwarves/shortfolk (maybe a race that combines dwarves and gnomes, instead of resorting to the two).

Elves/faeries (we can have classic elves, or make them true forest/nature creatures - i.e., plantfolk, rockfolk, etc.) If we opt for classic elves, let's make them different - maybe on this world the elves are the great city-builders (or were), or perhaps they are a new race.

Vegetable race/plantfolk (if not elves, then perhaps there is a reclusive race that literally guards the wilderness (especially useful if we adopt a barren/dying world motif - actually, using the humans-as-a-fading-race idea ties in nicely, as well).

Insect race (they were here before we were IRL, and they'll outlast us in the end) - I've always been fascinated by insects because in many ways they are aliens living among us. We can understand mammalian races because they are like us, we can even understand reptilian races to some degree because, at the most primitive level, they have similar basic drives. But insects, especially social species like ants, wasps, and bees, are strange with their hivelike natures.

I could imagine an ant-like race that builds massive complexes in the barrens, methodically stripping away whatever resources they can find to serve their queen. Whatever they can't find, they will either trade, or take by force. I could also imagine a mote benevolent race driven to restore a ruined world. Anyway, there are many possibilities.

Avians (cities on mountain peaks, in cliffs, or even floating in the sky!) Perhaps they are based on vultures, and live on the fringes of more civilised peoples, eating their dead and refuse (thereby cleaning the streets)? Little details like that can make cultures pop out a bit more.
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by Ashtagon » Mon May 04, 2009 9:19 pm

I have a feeling that all races should be basically air-breathers, with no special forms of movement (fly/swim/burrow). I realise this cuts out a lot of cool options, but it also makes it a ton easier to design adventures for a party.
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by Idabrius » Mon May 04, 2009 9:45 pm

Ashtagon wrote:I have a feeling that all races should be basically air-breathers, with no special forms of movement (fly/swim/burrow). I realise this cuts out a lot of cool options, but it also makes it a ton easier to design adventures for a party.
We can HAVE the other races but restrict players to races with normal movement modes (ie, not insubstantial, flying, etc.)
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by dulsi » Fri May 08, 2009 7:36 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:Vegetable race/plantfolk (if not elves, then perhaps there is a reclusive race that literally guards the wilderness (especially useful if we adopt a barren/dying world motif - actually, using the humans-as-a-fading-race idea ties in nicely, as well).
One thing I wanted to say on this subject. I'd prefer to see a plant race that isn't simply a humanoid plant. Obviously it still need to usable in a game but I'd like it to be very distinct and not just mini treants. I've debated adding the Vine Serpents to this project. Would people be interested in that? Unfortunately they don't have much culture the way I've designed them so I'm not sure they are good addition. They were based on parasitic plants. I also debated doing something based on the tumbleweed.
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by BotWizo » Wed May 13, 2009 4:07 pm

How about making our world unique from other fantasy settings by removing the "half-*" races.

Since I have a biology/genetics background the half-(orc/elf/other) has always bothered me.

In the Piazza (Edge) world there are no halfs due to the normal gentic rules about different species mating.
It would seem that many of the classic races are different species due to the varying ability modifiers and different abilities/traits that each fantasy race has.

Elves and Humans are vastly different and should not produce viable offspring. You see this difference in infravision, lifespan, etc..

If humans can produce viable offspring with elves then there really isn't much genetic variation and the two "races" are really the same, just differ in skin color or some other morphological traits.

Following this logic if humans can produce viable "half" beings with elves and orcs, then elves and orcs should be able to "half" between each other.
Then this leaves another genetic question, Why can't humans produce offspring with a variety of other races? Why only certain races and not others?

Now if you really needed a "half" race for some reason then they should be sterile (unable to produce viable offspring). We see this here on Earth when horses mate with Donkeys to produce a mule which is sterile. To give a crude explanation you get this because the two species are still very close to each other. In Genetics terms they have "recently" diverged from each other.

Now this would could lead to another possibilty, if Humans can half with another race and produce sterile offspring then humans or the other race have just diverged (descended) from one another.

I would like to set this world apart from some classic fantasy worlds and use some of our current scientific knowledge to govern some of natural genetics.

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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by Ashtagon » Wed May 13, 2009 4:14 pm

I agree. No half-races. The half-elf never really had a proper niche anyway.
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by slashnull » Fri May 15, 2009 1:33 am

Seer of Yhog wrote: If we opt for classic elves, let's make them different - maybe on this world the elves are the great city-builders (or were), or perhaps they are a new race..
That's a great idea. I like the thought that some of the elves that 'go into the west' end up on piazzaworld! Also having the elves as magically powerful newcomers who threaten some of the Human paradises could be fun...

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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by Ashtagon » Fri May 15, 2009 6:21 am

Someone earlier suggested a plant race, and that reminded e that in a certain non-TSR setting, elves were actually plants. Maybe do that?
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Re: Races for The Edge

Post by Ashtagon » Fri May 15, 2009 11:11 am

Squamous races:

bullwug (Monsters of Faerun - not open content)
siv (Monsters of Faerun - not open content)
lizardfolk (SRD, I believe)
yuan-ti (MM1 - not open content) (what's their status in d20 Modern SRD?)
kuo-toa (MM1 - not open content)
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