Religion?

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Religion?

Post by Jakob_Pawlowicz » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:30 pm

I have just been catching up on all you have been doing. And it is amazing. I was on the verge of begining to creat a new world for my players, when I fell over this part of The Piazza. I thought I might as well, throw in what I have into the pot.

But first some questions of mine.

First question that has been burning in my mind for the last couple of days of reading all of this, has been: How did this world came to be? Is it the result of the dust from the forming of the solar-systems central sun, was it created by an all mighty being or beings. How did Piazza-world start?

Second. I presume that the world must have its priests? If so are there gods/deities/powers or are the prayers (divine spells) of the priests given force by philosophy alone? Or are these not mutually exclusive?

If we say there are gods/deities/powers. Should we then have a huge pantheon, due to the fact so many people have retained their faiths and brought them with the to this, their new world.
Or perhaps the nature of Piazza-world interfers with the migration of beliefs, barring the worship of new gods from outside the metaphysical corner, that this world inhabits.


I must appologize for any bad spelling and gramma, since it has been a while since my written english has been put to use.
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Re: Religion? further ramblings

Post by Jakob_Pawlowicz » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:38 pm

To continue on my second point.....

If we accept that there are gods/deities/powers unique to this world and its people. They are a part of the world and therefore must reflect the core value or ideas,(you have so far come up with).
As far as I can tell concepts such as : Travel, exploration, journeys, time, chaos, homeworld, change, adaption. Seems to encompass what people write into this project.
But in these ideas we also find, in my perspective, a need to have two kinds of gods/deities/powers, those how are homegrown and those who have followed their followers to this new world.

In my oppinion this would lead to Setup much like the one we have present in Mystara or The Forgotten Realms, where there is a mixture between deities from the given world, with followers only here. And deities who has followers in many pantheons/on many worlds ( for example The Norse or Greek)

So how should our gods look like, should they be the embodiments of their spheres of interests. ie. Should each culture have separate a sun god or should it be the same god but with a different appearance. To make it easiere for ourselves I vote the latter.

Should the influence of the god be linked to a)how long its belief have excisted (which seems to be the case partly on Mystara), b) to the sheer number of followers (partly Mystara, partly Forgotten realms), or c) to the importance of the deitie's reason of being/interests?
Or should we not consider the individual deities power level? And just accept them (all) as being equals in the grander scheme of things.
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Re: Religion?

Post by Chimpman » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:05 am

It's a very good question, but I'm not sure I have answers to any of it. Since we want this to be a game world that we can play in (and since clerics are a large part of D&D as it stands today) I think we have to go into this problem with the assumptions that we want clerical magic to work. That being said we have several possibilities that we can explore (and I think Jacob outlined them above fairly well).
1) Non-Natives bring their deities (or some fraction of their native pantheons) with them. This option seems like it's the easiest to manage when doing a group building exercise, but it also takes away something from the setting. If Piazza World truly is the Bermuda Triangle of the cosmos, then deities shouldn't be able to travel back and forth "freely". IMO.

2) Native gods exist, but non-natives are kept out (through some unknown means). When non-native cultures are transplanted here their own deities are "switched out" for native ones. That doesn't mean their worship would change (at least in the short term) or that they would even acknowledge they are worshiping new gods. In all likelihood, from their perspective, nothing would change - at least not in the short term. In the long term the native deities may alter the way cultures worship to better suit their own needs.

3) Clerical powers can be attained through force of will (as well as through divine countenance). In this case a cleric's powers come from their inner strength, and are not directly granted by a deity. If this is true then whether or not one of the other 2 points is the "truth" looses relevance.

I personally like the idea of #2 or a combination of #2 and #3.
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Re: Religion?

Post by Ashtagon » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:40 am

Of those three, I like #2 best. Letting non-native deities in has implications for using planar travel to escape from the setting. It also means that non-OGL deities might require an entry visa, which just won't do.

I like the idea of native deities, who somehow redirect the prayers of clerics to themselves. In effect, the "shunt system" detects the spheres/domains of the cleric's prayers, and redirects them to the deity. Whether the deity reveals himself as being someone other than the cleric's true deity would depend on their personality. Most would probably impart some knowledge of the real situation to the clerics (deities are trapped just as much as the mortals; the deities can grant divine spells just as their old deity could; revealing the truth about the new deity's identity to society at large could cause riots, so plz hush it up).

In other words, the clerics know the truth, but have an incentive to keep presenting things as if the old gods came with them.
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Re: Religion?

Post by Boddynock » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:53 am

This is a good question and another aspect of campaign making that I sometimes find as the hardest, building new dieties. Also in a slight hint from Mystara what about the possibility of Immortals who in some vague way are responsible for Piazzaworld being the Bermuda triangle as it is. These immortals walk the world granting the clerical powers and are able to guise themselves as the gods of old or new.
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Re: Religion?

Post by Ashtagon » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:58 am

That's a very good point. As part of the pantheon-building, we really need to define the deities' relationship with the Bermuda triangle effect in the setting.

I think it's probably best that there are aware of it, know its limits, but aren't responsible for it. Otherwise, it has implications for the "good" deities. Maybe the overgod of the setting is the one responsible.

I'd propose my modern gods pantheon for it, but I don't think that pantheon covers all the bases adequately for a fantasy campaign.
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Re: Religion?

Post by maddog » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:49 am

Here's another question.... Will it be "deities", "gods" or "immortals" that is used as the "proper" word to describe those critters that are considered evil or divine?
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Re: Religion?

Post by Idabrius » Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:12 am

Well, it is also possible that the "native" gods where themselves drawn in during some previous time period from other planes. This would make them just as much of a group of cosmic wanderers as the cultures that grow up there. Of course, perhaps there are actually native and non-native gods, but they are all stuck as it were, having been stranded in Thalassa (what name did we eventually decide on?) or sprung up during a prehistoric period when Gods walked the land and such.

I like the idea of vagabond gods because it fits in with the setting, and gives us even more weirdness as ostensibly a vagabond god would have had an entire homeworld and culture attached to it that has become vestigial since its transplatation to Thalassa (and probably its divine mutation over a period of centuries as the deity adjusted to attract new worshipers).
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Re: Religion?

Post by Boddynock » Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:19 am

Idabrius wrote:Well, it is also possible that the "native" gods where themselves drawn in during some previous time period from other planes. This would make them just as much of a group of cosmic wanderers as the cultures that grow up there. Of course, perhaps there are actually native and non-native gods, but they are all stuck as it were, having been stranded in Thalassa (what name did we eventually decide on?) or sprung up during a prehistoric period when Gods walked the land and such.

I like the idea of vagabond gods because it fits in with the setting, and gives us even more weirdness as ostensibly a vagabond god would have had an entire homeworld and culture attached to it that has become vestigial since its transplatation to Thalassa (and probably its divine mutation over a period of centuries as the deity adjusted to attract new worshipers).
Now that idea came to me at work too. There might be an overgod who built this Bermuda Triangle like plane and it 'grabbed' some of the deities, trapping them. They having the power of gods yet like the mortals, the gods have been unable to leave the plane the overgod created.
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Re: Religion?

Post by Idabrius » Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:38 am

Or perhaps it is simply the nature of the plane -- or perhaps there is something similar to the overgod you spoke of, but it is the heart of the plane itself; a living artifact as it were?
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Re: Religion?

Post by Vile » Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:46 am

I am in favour of not allowing in "foreign" gods. However, I like the idea that gods and their worshippers influence one another over time. In other words, when worshippers arrive on Piazzaworld and find they no longer have access to their god, they begin to experiment, perhaps adopting some local practices and customs. Over the years, their changed ways begin to have an effect, and they are back in touch with "their" deity.

What actually happened is that they actually switched their worship, by increments, to a local god of a similar nature to their own. By the same token, to some extent they re-made that local god in the image of their old god. This means there are different 'aspects' of the same gods - locals might still worship their original version of the god, while the newcomers worship their own version.

This kind of conversion could be unintentional (and without the clergy being aware of it), or it could be a deliberate attempt to usurp native religions and pull their practicioners into the newcomers' congregation. Sort of like successive religions adapting existing holidays and making them their own, as happened in the Real World.

From the gods' perspective, it's all the same - they get more worshippers, so they are willing to change their image to suit mortal expectations. You've got to keep pace with your fanbase.

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Re: Religion?

Post by Chimpman » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:44 am

Idabrius wrote:Well, it is also possible that the "native" gods where themselves drawn in during some previous time period from other planes. This would make them just as much of a group of cosmic wanderers as the cultures that grow up there. Of course, perhaps there are actually native and non-native gods, but they are all stuck as it were, having been stranded in Thalassa (what name did we eventually decide on?) or sprung up during a prehistoric period when Gods walked the land and such.

I like the idea of vagabond gods because it fits in with the setting, and gives us even more weirdness as ostensibly a vagabond god would have had an entire homeworld and culture attached to it that has become vestigial since its transplatation to Thalassa (and probably its divine mutation over a period of centuries as the deity adjusted to attract new worshipers).
This is a really good idea.
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Re: Religion?

Post by Jakob_Pawlowicz » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:00 pm

Chimpman wrote: 2) Native gods exist, but non-natives are kept out (through some unknown means). When non-native cultures are transplanted here their own deities are "switched out" for native ones. That doesn't mean their worship would change (at least in the short term) or that they would even acknowledge they are worshiping new gods. In all likelihood, from their perspective, nothing would change - at least not in the short term. In the long term the native deities may alter the way cultures worship to better suit their own needs.

3) Clerical powers can be attained through force of will (as well as through divine countenance). In this case a cleric's powers come from their inner strength, and are not directly granted by a deity. If this is true then whether or not one of the other 2 points is the "truth" looses relevance.
I had about the same in mind, a mixture of these two point when it comes to the source of Divine spells.

With regards to point #2: The idea of a force (ie. the nature of Piazzaworld, the overgod(s), or whatnot) keeping foreign gods out, I am not totally sure that this will be right way to do it. I suggest instead that it is possible for gods to crossover into this world from their own world(s). But that such an event is born out of fate, chance or accident. As it would be with the people arriving to our little world.
But adhering to the rules of this world the gods (or part of the gods essence/self) will themselves be stranded and forced to settle here, apart from their homeworlds.

I believe that this solution would also adhere to Ashtagon and Boddynock's thoughts on "Bermuda-Triangle" which is a core idea for this campaign world.
Boddynock wrote: There might be an overgod who built this Bermuda Triangle like plane and it 'grabbed' some of the deities, trapping them. They having the power of gods yet like the mortals, the gods have been unable to leave the plane the overgod created.
Ashtagon wrote: we really need to define the deities' relationship with the Bermuda triangle effect in the setting.
I think it's probably best that there are aware of it, know its limits, but aren't responsible for it. Otherwise, it has implications for the "good" deities. Maybe the overgod of the setting is the one responsible.
I'd propose my modern gods pantheon for it, but I don't think that pantheon covers all the bases adequately for a fantasy campaign.
And combining that with what Idabrius wrote:
Idabrius wrote:Well, it is also possible that the "native" gods where themselves drawn in during some previous time period from other planes. This would make them just as much of a group of cosmic wanderers as the cultures that grow up there. Of course, perhaps there are actually native and non-native gods, but they are all stuck as it were, having been stranded in Thalassa (what name did we eventually decide on?) or sprung up during a prehistoric period when Gods walked the land and such.

I like the idea of vagabond gods because it fits in with the setting, and gives us even more weirdness as ostensibly a vagabond god would have had an entire homeworld and culture attached to it that has become vestigial since its transplatation to Thalassa (and probably its divine mutation over a period of centuries as the deity adjusted to attract new worshipers).
This makes me suggest the following: The gods that arrive here from elsewhere, do arrive because there are an open niche for them to fill. This could be seen as the hand of the overgod(s) in a way to push the steady development of the world forwards, keeping status quo, or end the whole thing before it gets totally out of hand :P

This should off cause not exclude homegrown deities/powers/gods from emerging either.

If I were to follow this line of though I see the following :
1) Creation. An Over- god, an entity, or a group of such creates the world.
2) First spark of life on the world, probably elemental forces. Which then gives rise to elemental gods, one for each element, as well as god for the force of life and death.
3) Biological life. This creates the gods of nature and natural forces.
4) First Sentient life. Basic forces are given name: Love, hate, strength, beauty, magic, ect. As well as forces of certain name given places (spirits of a specific geographical feature: a mountain, a hill, a river ect.)
5) Civilized Sentient life. Abstract forces are given name: Law, Justice, War, time, history, writing ect.

When I say “given name” I must refer to these deities may either form from this world or have come to this world to fill in the niche.
There is also the aspect of gods/powers/deities upgrading (and downgrading) their essence/portfolio/area of influence. For example to use the Elemental “god” of Air, may have acquired the Area of influence: Storms in stage two, Strength in stage 3 and finally War in stage 4.
maddog wrote: Here's another question.... Will it be "deities", "gods" or "immortals" that is used as the "proper" word to describe those critters that are considered evil or divine?
This is also something we should consider before going further. I would vote for our “supreme” beings to be collectively known as Powers (Yes, I do like Planescape :P ) Or what do you think?
I also think this should apply, regardless of the individual power’s morals and ethics.
Another question I would like to lay before you all is the question of Should we apply the idea of the 9 alignments (LG, NG, CG, ect. ect.) in our description of the powers?

-My 2 cents
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Re: Religion?

Post by Ashtagon » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:59 pm

Wrt the alignments, I suggest use them and abuse them as we see fit as convenient shorthand descriptors, but use nothing that requires them as game mechanics. Where one deity has power over something, it is because of his portfolio, not because of his alignment.
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Re: Religion?

Post by LoZompatore » Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:40 pm

What if such an over-god actually created a Pazzaworld and nearby stars placing them inside a pocket plane of existence? (As an alternative, it could have just ripped these worlds from the Prime Plane and then enclosed them in the pocket plane). Let's call this place Piazzaplane, just to give it a name ;) .

Maybe we could say that Piazzaplane is floating adrift in the Astral dimension. It could have all the average, well-known connections with the the other major Planes of existence (ethereal, astral, elementals, and even the Prime) but, due the drift in the Astal, it is impossible to keep a fixed cross-planar connection for a long extent of time. Any dimensional breach will close after an unpredictable amount of time and, if reopened, it will never connect to the same destination as before.
For example, any skilled magic user will be able to reach the Elemental Plane of Fire any time. With his spells he could reach the same place and come back for a random number of thimes, then suddenly, he could fimd himself not to be able to return back to Piazzaworld anymore (if he was in the elemental plane) or, if he is in Piazzaworld, he may find that his planar travelling spells now bring him to an entirely different place of the Elemental Plane of Fire.

Deities other than the over-god could have problems in tracking such and ever-changing world, and their only way to ensure a lasting influence on the local mortals would be to permanently reside in Piazzaworld, thus mostly cutting themselves out from the rest of the Multiverse. That's why Piazzaworld has its own set of deities and why a "foreign" deity will almost always tend to abandon any stranded party of followers who is trapped on Piazzaworld.

Pantheons would not be fixed, anyway. A new deity could always come to stay in Piazzaworld from the outside if it is really concerned with its stranded followers (or if its followers mass-migrate to Piazzaworld), or maybe a "rogue" Power chooses to test its fortune settling in the relatively small habitat of Piazzaworld.
On the opposite an older, resident, deity could become tired of being cut off from the rest of the Multiverse and it could leave Piazzaworld, never to return. If we decide that deities actually make war among themselves, then some of them could become too weak to maintain a followers' base, they give up their projects and abandon Piazzaplane. Other deities, losing some wars against other Powers, could be expelled from Piazzaplane by force, and so on.

These are my two cents: hope they could help! :)

By the way, as you noticed above, I'd prefer the terms "deity" or "power" for Piazzaworld gods. ;)

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Re: Religion?

Post by Ashtagon » Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:50 pm

This has implications for summoning spells too. Spells that summon monsters for short periods (such as the summon monster X chain) create a temporary breach that pulls a creature from elsewhere (and just as quickly pulls it back at the end of the spell; no planar travel for you Mr wizard). Spells that bind a creature or open long-lasting portals (gate, planar binding, etc) simply fail in The Edge.
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Re: Religion?

Post by Dave L » Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:52 pm

LoZompatore wrote: Deities other than the over-god could have problems in tracking such and ever-changing world, and their only way to ensure a lasting influence on the local mortals would be to permanently reside in Piazzaworld, thus mostly cutting themselves out from the rest of the Multiverse. That's why Piazzaworld has its own set of deities and why a "foreign" deity will almost always tend to abandon any stranded party of followers who is trapped on Piazzaworld.
I like that concept, it makes sense.

Still being BECMI at heart, "powers" is a term that appeals to me - players could then transfer over from any sort of campaign and not get confused over the "immortals or deities?" issue. There were "powers" in their previous world, there are different "powers" here.

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Re: Religion?

Post by Jakob_Pawlowicz » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:14 pm

Ashtagon wrote:Wrt the alignments, I suggest use them and abuse them as we see fit as convenient shorthand descriptors, but use nothing that requires them as game mechanics. Where one deity has power over something, it is because of his portfolio, not because of his alignment.
Ok. I can live with that. :roll: (All my D&D-like god descriptions out the window :lol: )

Another question: should we have a ranking system of the gods/powers/deities?
LoZompatore wrote:What if such an over-god actually created a Pazzaworld and nearby stars placing them inside a pocket plane of existence? (As an alternative, it could have just ripped these worlds from the Prime Plane and then enclosed them in the pocket plane). Let's call this place Piazzaplane, just to give it a name ;) .

Maybe we could say that Piazzaplane is floating adrift in the Astral dimension. It could have all the average, well-known connections with the the other major Planes of existence (ethereal, astral, elementals, and even the Prime) but, due the drift in the Astal, it is impossible to keep a fixed cross-planar connection for a long extent of time. Any dimensional breach will close after an unpredictable amount of time and, if reopened, it will never connect to the same destination as before.
For example, any skilled magic user will be able to reach the Elemental Plane of Fire any time. With his spells he could reach the same place and come back for a random number of thimes, then suddenly, he could fimd himself not to be able to return back to Piazzaworld anymore (if he was in the elemental plane) or, if he is in Piazzaworld, he may find that his planar travelling spells now bring him to an entirely different place of the Elemental Plane of Fire.
This would mean that if Piazzaworld (isn’t there name we can use?) would move 1 meter metaphysically, then the point where it was bonded to either by gate, spell, wormhole or portal, would either be severed or it would move the same distance. I love it.
This would also mean that we do not have to reinvent the multiverse for Piazzaworld. We just have to set the rules for how Piazzaworld interacts with the multiverse.
LoZompatore wrote: Deities other than the over-god could have problems in tracking such and ever-changing world, and their only way to ensure a lasting influence on the local mortals would be to permanently reside in Piazzaworld, thus mostly cutting themselves out from the rest of the Multiverse. That's why Piazzaworld has its own set of deities and why a "foreign" deity will almost always tend to abandon any stranded party of followers who is trapped on Piazzaworld.
Pantheons would not be fixed, anyway. A new deity could always come to stay in Piazzaworld from the outside if it is really concerned with its stranded followers (or if its followers mass-migrate to Piazzaworld), or maybe a "rogue" Power chooses to test its fortune settling in the relatively small habitat of Piazzaworld.
On the opposite an older, resident, deity could become tired of being cut off from the rest of the Multiverse and it could leave Piazzaworld, never to return. If we decide that deities actually make war among themselves, then some of them could become too weak to maintain a followers' base, they give up their projects and abandon Piazzaplane. Other deities, losing some wars against other Powers, could be expelled from Piazzaplane by force, and so on.
I agree. Although I think that some of Piazzaworld’s powers would have been here so long that most believers would start holy wars at the notion that their deity originated somewhere else….
LoZompatore wrote:
By the way, as you noticed above, I'd prefer the terms "deity" or "power" for Piazzaworld gods. ;)
I agree. Both words are neutral with respect evil/good behavior of said being.
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I couldn't wait

Post by Jakob_Pawlowicz » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:08 am

I couldn't wait.
Here's a stab at a Deity/power for Thalassa..... more or less complete, I'll put more on this, if its something that can be used for Thalassa

The Sun and Moon

Current aliases: Naryan and Nara, Sun & Moon, the Guides, Day and Night, the Twins, the eternal lovers, every people on the face have a name for this power in their own tongue.

Port folio: Day and Night, The sun and moon, Guidance, navigation, timekeeping, calendars.

Symbol: an oval divided in a black and white half.

Appearance: When seen by mortals, Nara and Naryan, will always appear as an middleaged couple, Naryan dressed in white and Nara in black. Nearly always holding hands. Among their fellow deities the will appear as a pair of siamese twins their backs joined together, one completely white, the other black as the night.

History:
Naryan and Nara, are among the oldest powers in Thalassa. The oldest scriptures in the Birhamian libraries contain prayers and stories of this power. One of these goes something like this:

It is said that they were born on the day, when the creators finished Thalassa. First Naryan rose from beyond, shining his light all over Thalassa, then after he disappeared below the horizon.
It was time for Nara to cover the world, so it might sleep and rest.

But Nara was saddened because she could not see the wonders of the world, being covered in nights black blanket, so she went to the creator(s), when it was time for Naryan to rise again. The Creator(s) listened to their grief stricken child. They pondered this for a time, because they had given all the light of Thalassa to Naryan, so that all would be enlightened during the daytime, and dark during night.
It took all day for the creator(s) to see what had to be done. They took a little of Naryans light when he crossed the horizon at the end of the second day, and gave it to Nara, so when she cast her veil of the night out over the world, it was littered with specs of light shining down upon the world.

When Nara returned to the horizon she was both gladdened and saddened. She stood before the creator(s). She pleaded the Creator(s), as she missed her brothers (lover) light, and she could not be with him as they had been parted. Again the Creator(s) thought this through all day. And by the time Naryan came to the Horizon again Illisia the power of invention had fashioned Nara a mirror through which she could catch Naryans light when he travelled round the horizon getting ready for the next morning. And so the Moon appeared on the second night of Thalassa.


A more resent event has also been described in the Birhamian chronicles.

For ages did Nara watch over the sleeping world, never knowing that eyes also followed her path over the skies. These eyes belonged to man by the name of Tharcis. Tharcis was no ordinary man, he was the son of two great powers of a far away realm. He had one day looked through a portal and seen Nara, wanting to meet this most beautiful woman, he had then walked through portal and entered Thalassa. Now he spent his time looking for her, only seeing her in the sky during the night.

One such night Tharcis sat by a still pool of water, which reflected the light of Nara perfectly making Tharcis cast his shade on to the nearby trees.
“You seem troubled, my brother” said the shade. Surprised Tharcis leapt to his feet. “Who are you, dark one” he stammered, never having seen such a being in his long life. “My name is Sicraht” the shade replied with its whistling voice. “What do you want Sicraht”? ”I only want to make you happy, brother. For as long as you are unhappy, so am I.” Tharcis sighed deeply. “Truly I have not known happiness ever since I first saw her.” He said, turning his gaze towards the sky again. “You desire her?” “With all my heart.” The Shade leaned closer to Tharcis, and whispered “I known of the secret route, on which she travels each day during the light of the day. I can show you the path, if it would make you happy.” “Yes, yes take me to her, brother, with her I will feel complete and happy.” The Shade smiled. “Meet me here tomorrow night in the hour before dawn” It whistled, and faded into the night.

Tharcis spent the following night bathing, cleansing his clothes, readying himself for the sight of his one true love. At the hour before dawn, the shade appeared before him. “Come my brother, we have a long and dangerous journey to make”. They then travelled for almost all of the day. Reaching the eastern gate on the horizon, from which the sun and the moon would start their journey across the sky. Here they waited for Nara to arrive. Tharcis felt his excitement and his anticipation rise. Oh how he desired Nara, how perfect everything would be once they would be together. Wanting to meet his beloved Tharcis strode out before the gate. Standing before it readying himself for her arrival, his bravery crumbled, as he realised he had forgotten to bring a gift for his perfect love. Tharcis turned to the shade. “Brother in my haste I have forgotten to bring a gift for my true love” he stammered. The shade smiled, “True my brother has forgotten himself in his haste. But have no fear brother, I saw this beautiful star as we passed through the lands of twilight” The Shade then laid the small shining star into Tharcis hands. “But now, I must depart my brother, as I am sure of that you will find your happiness very soon”. Then the Shade departed, again folding itself into the shadow of Tharcis. The Star was perfect, its light was soft and seemed to fold itself around his hands. It was perfect.

As Tharcis caressed the fragile star of light, trying imaging how he best could present his gift to Nara. The day became dusk and Nara arrived at the gate, Tharcis froze at the sight of the lady her had loved for so long, from afar. He stepped forward holding the star forward in his hands. “To you my eternal love, to you the lady of my heart.” He stammered, feeling fear flaring up inside. Nara stood speechless, surprised by the appearance of the man in front of her, transfixed by the strange alien light of the small star. The first light she had seen, which did not come from her husband the Sun. Tharcis stood also speechless, motionless, fearing to break the moment. Slowly Nara shifted her vision toward the man in front of her, and she spoke. “The light you bring to me, gives me no joy, as it is not of this world, nor of my husbands creation. I cannot accept this gift young one.”

As her words were said, something shattered in Tharcis’ soul. Anger of the rejection, the burning pain and insatiable hate, tore his soul to pieces. In that moment of pure insanity, Tharcis threw the star at the source of his pain. As the accursed star hit its target, it shattered the mirror of the moon, the link between husband and wife gone forever.
Nara fell to the ground right before the gates. Letting out a single scream of pain. Tharcis was struck by fear and couldn’t move as Naryan rushed towards the place where his bride lay stricken. Naryan’s anger was great and his light burned Tharcis without remorse.
Only then did Tharcis move, the pain overwhelming, and he ran and hid as he did not dare face what he had done. Only when he reached the twilight lands did he stop, and ever hiding from the sight of the Sun and Moon. His only companion was now his own smiling shadow.

When the moon rose that night. The tears of her pain, the pieces of the broken mirror and the dust of the false star, mixed and fell from her face as she crossed the sky, raining down upon the world.



Role:
Nara & Naryans chief responsibility is the continued change of day and night. They are the keepers of Light and darkness. The same control also leaves the control of the coming and going of the phases of the moon, as well as the beginning of the different seasons in their control. For this reason do many farming communities have shrines dedicated to these deities.

Likewise have many sent prayers of thanks due to the guidance they provide through the directions read form the path of the stars, the sun and the moon. Many captains have small altars in their cabins dedicated to the Twins.
Nara and Naryan are in short guides to whether people need to find their direction to go somewhere, or find the time of day, month or year. They do not show the future, but they show what will happen regardless of destinies of mortals. They represent a set of constants of the world of Thalassa. The sun and the moon that rise in turn, the coming and going of the seasons, and the yearly passing of the stars.

Role of the Temples
The role of the temples and shrines dedicated to Nara and Naryan depends of the location of the temple.
In urban areas, their role isn’t great, as the belief is tied to natural forces. Here in cities and large towns the temples functions as archives for treaties, deeds, contracts, legal documents and as such. The temples large courtyards also provide the space for annual events and festivities.
In cities, towns and villages along the seas, the temples and shrines are most often located near the harbour, where they service the people travelling the seas. Where the temple or shrine give captains, sailors and other people of the seas a place to give prayers for a swift and secure journey.
In villages and hamlets the temple performs service to farmers and shepherds. Where the temples are home to the annual festivities of the passing of the seasons, feasts of the harvest, etch.

Two features are the same for all of the temples and the shrines of Nara and Naryan. They have open courtyards lined with pylons and pillars set so to help with solar and lunar observations. And they all have domed building, a dome which holds mural of the night sky and the stars.
Last edited by Jakob_Pawlowicz on Sat May 01, 2010 6:33 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Religion?

Post by LoZompatore » Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:13 am

Great work! :)

So we have a name for both the sun and the moon of Thalassa...
Moreover, with your post, you just stated that Thalassa has only one moon ;)

(If not so, how any more moon of Thalassa could be related to this legend?)

With regard to Nara, how the event called the Moonbreak (soon it will be changed to Moonstrike ;) ) could be explained in theological/metaphisical terms?

I just recall that this event likely happened one thousand years ago, it left a bright new crater on the visible side of the moon (it could be likey interpreted as a scar by Thalassa observers) and the debris which falled on Thalassa are the main source of the Moonlands.

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Re: Religion?

Post by Jakob_Pawlowicz » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:59 pm

Just updated it a bit, further updates will come. (edited 5 times this night) :P
LoZompatore wrote: stated that Thalassa has only one moon

I think it would be nice to have just the one moon. If we more celestial bodies circling the world of Thalassa, why not have rings like those of RW Saturn?
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Re: Religion?

Post by Jakob_Pawlowicz » Sat May 01, 2010 6:32 pm

More or less the final update for the deities of the Sun and moon.
How do you like it?
Should there be something added?

I have further ideas for powers/deities of this world, should I continue?

What I have so far are ideas for:
"The Shade": Deity of Mischief and malice/Corruption, twillight
Tharcis: Diety of Hate, Jealousy, desire, narcisism.
Illisia : Deity of Invention and ideas (part of a trinity of Deities of knowledge, invention and crafting ? would that work out?)
Ayana: Deity of Sleep and Dreams (Daughter of Nara and Naryan).

Let me know what you think. :)
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Re: Religion?

Post by LoZompatore » Thu May 06, 2010 12:14 am

More or less the final update for the deities of the Sun and moon.
How do you like it?
Should there be something added?
Sorry for the delay, I was really busy with work and other things until today. :P
I really love what you wrote! I think it is an excellent material, the novelization of the Moonstrike is really intriguing. I'm wondering if we could say that Tharcis is actually some historical character, somehow involved (or not) in the events leading to the catastrophe. Maybe Tharcis is still living today (as an undead being, maybe?) and it could act as a villain of some sort... Just writing my toughts as they appear in my mind, feel free to drop them as you like...
I have further ideas for powers/deities of this world, should I continue?
Of course you should! :D
I opened a thread about your suggestion for a planetary ring around Thalassa: some realistic considerations required two larger moonlets orbiting at the ring borders in order to keep it stable. Those moonlets are pretty visible from Thalassa's surface and should likely be associated with some deity. Moreover, the ring is likely younger than the sun and the moon of Thalassa (to the point that some very old legend handed down in a few dragon lineages speaks about a time when the ring did not exist over Thalassa), maybe the two moonlets could be interpreted as the children (or the younger siblings) of Nara. You are welcome to add your suggestions about this point.
The ring itself could be associated with a deity, in my opinion "the shade" would fit very nicely such a role.

On another matter, I think that it could be useful to figure out Thalassa's solar system on a dedicated thread, in order to associate deities to planets and other prominent features of Thalassa's sky ;)

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Re: Religion?

Post by Boddynock » Thu May 06, 2010 12:27 am

Dendi Gemfotter and the fashioning of gnomes

There is a reason that gnomes enjoy the stone of topaz. How its bright yellow features make it stand out against the more darker blues and greens. To them they trace to topaz to their chief deity, Dendi Gemfotter.

For in the beginning as the gnome legend tells Dendi had decided to help the world along by fashioning the people in it. He first took emerald and craved it into a lithe figure which would be a elf

"You shall be one with trees, like the woods you shall be always beautiful and always mysterious"

He then took the diamond and fashioned it to a hard, stout fellow which were the dwarves.

"You shall be my hardiest of race, birthed from my hardest stone. You might look rough but can carve such beauty"

He then took sapphires and made into men who had wandering in their hearts. He took rubies and formed halflings, believing they would love all things; life, good times, even love itself.

When he decided on gnomes he wasn't sure what gem to fashion with. Obsidian was too harsh a color, quartz was something just a bit exquisite, then a flash caught his eye. He spied a yellow gem that didn't mind glaring its color off the light of the forge. He studied it, threw it up in the air and caught it. At last he fashioned the gnomes whom he declared

"You will enjoy all things different because you yourselves are so different. The world might laugh at such a strange hue and form, but that's okay, for you will laugh back."

Thus he slowly fashioned the gems in the world and the people that lived upon it.

Dendi Gemfotter: God of gems, gnomes, and invention. Chief of the gnome panethon - LG
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Re: Religion?

Post by Ashtagon » Thu May 06, 2010 6:58 am

I think we should avoid having racial pantheons, or even a "god of race X". It kind of implies a race-specific mythology and creation story, rather than a unified "we are all immigrants" theme.
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