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[Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 8:45 pm
by Tim Baker
I was surprised to learn that the 10-year anniversary edition of the Kingmaker adventure path will be released for Dungeons & Dragons 5e. What might this mean for future Paizo APs and products?

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Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 12:56 am
by Cthulhudrew
I wouldn't imagine it would mean too much for the rest of Paizo's line, as they are getting ready to roll out the 2nd edition of Pathfinder in August, and Starfinder seems to be going quite well as it is.

That said, this is certainly interesting news.

EDIT: Reading through the announcement, it looks like they are doing a hardcover version of this for Pathfinder 2E (probably similar to what was done with Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne for 1E), and they are releasing a 5E bestiary so that D&D players can run through it as well. It kind of sounds like an attempt to bring 5E players back to 2E Pathfinder more than anything. But that may just be the cynic in me.

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 10:18 am
by Princess Strega
It's pretty incredible that it is being converted to D&D 5e. If it goes well I can imagine that Paizo will publish more for D&D 5E.

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 4:30 am
by Tim Baker
Cthulhudrew wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 12:56 am
Reading through the announcement, it looks like they are doing a hardcover version of this for Pathfinder 2E (probably similar to what was done with Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne for 1E), and they are releasing a 5E bestiary so that D&D players can run through it as well. It kind of sounds like an attempt to bring 5E players back to 2E Pathfinder more than anything. But that may just be the cynic in me.
Is your way of thinking about it that by looking through a Pathfinder 2e book, current 5e players will get the itch to return to Pathfinder?

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 5:33 am
by Cthulhudrew
Tim Baker wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:30 am
Is your way of thinking about it that by looking through a Pathfinder 2e book, current 5e players will get the itch to return to Pathfinder?
A lot of the D&D base migrated to Pathfinder during the 4E phase because they liked the system they had come to enjoy under 3E. From what I understand, Pathfinder lost a number of its player base to 5E when it came out; people seeking a return to a simpler system than Pathfinder had at that point developed into. Pathfinder 2E has, in many ways, tried to simplify the d20/Pathfinder system so that it is easier to run pickup games, less time spent on character creation and development (including removing "feat chains" and deadends of character building).

The way this announcement reads to me is it seems like a sort of hope that 5E players will pick up both the 2E Kingmaker book and the 5E bestiary. That would benefit Paizo by both having a broader purchaser base for their product, might entice 5E players to check out more of the Golarion setting, and might possibly tempt them to give 2E another look and possibly come back to the Paizo fold, as it were.

Granted, I'm not sure how reasonable a proposition that might be, but that just is my take on things.

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 6:59 am
by Tim Baker
Cthulhudrew wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 5:33 am
The way this announcement reads to me is it seems like a sort of hope that 5E players will pick up both the 2E Kingmaker book and the 5E bestiary. That would benefit Paizo by both having a broader purchaser base for their product, might entice 5E players to check out more of the Golarion setting, and might possibly tempt them to give 2E another look and possibly come back to the Paizo fold, as it were.

Granted, I'm not sure how reasonable a proposition that might be, but that just is my take on things.
I see. Thanks for taking the time to explain. That could very well be. I hadn't caught that this will be a Pathfinder 2e-only AP with a 5e bestiary. Having just given the announcement another read, I think you're right about that. Looks like we'll have some more details this Tuesday.

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 11:08 am
by Big Mac
It looks like the crowdfunding at Game On Tabletop ended three days ago, with $ 10,905,183 raised from 46,021 backers (unless that is the total money raised by Game On Tabletop for all of it's projects).

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 5:40 pm
by Tim Baker
Big Mac wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 11:08 am
It looks like the crowdfunding at Game On Tabletop ended three days ago, with $ 10,905,183 raised from 46,021 backers (unless that is the total money raised by Game On Tabletop for all of it's projects).
The campaign hasn't started yet. I believe that's the total for the entire site thus far. The campaign kicks off on Tuesday.

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 8:07 pm
by shesheyan
I don't see this as an attempt to try to convert 5e players to Pathfinder 2. It's a business decision to grab some of the 5e money. It widens Paizo's customer base. Which is a good idea if PF 2e isn't as popular as expected. After all, Paizo started as a D20 product creator before becoming a rpg publisher.

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 1:37 pm
by Big Mac
shesheyan wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 8:07 pm
I don't see this as an attempt to try to convert 5e players to Pathfinder 2. It's a business decision to grab some of the 5e money. It widens Paizo cutomer base. Which is a good idea if PF 2e isn't as popular as expected. After all, Paizo started as a D20 product creator before becoming a rpg publisher.
I've only played Pathfinder once (Ashtagon forced me to play a game with her at a convention :lol: ) and I've not played 5th Edtion at all, so I mostly look at the Pathfinder Campaign Setting as something I might want to visit in a 3rd Edition game.

For me, the big questions about Kingmaker Adventure Path are going to be:
  • Is the Pathfinder 2e or D&D 5e content going to be easier for me to understand and
  • Can I use the OGC to retroconvert anything new to 3e rules.
I think that Pathfinder's 1e primary advantage, was that they built it after 4th Edition came out, so could listen to D&D user feedback and pluck the best ideas from 3e and 4e and add their own ideas.

We now have a situation where Pathfinder 2e is coming out after 5th Edition came out. So they should be able to listen to D&D user feedback and pluck the best ideas from the original Pathfinder and 5th Edition D&D and add their own ideas. (And they should also be able to go back to ideas from 3e and 4e that they overlooked, if appropriate.)

As well as tapping into the 5e market, this hybrid Adventure Path is probably going to be a way that Paizo's designers can do a stealth comparison of how well the monster rules of Pathfinder 2e hold up against the monster rules of 5e D&D.

If one of the monsters works a lot better under 5th Edition D&D rules than it does under 2nd Edition Pathfinder rules, that might allow them to go back and tweak their 2e core rules.

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 6:05 am
by Tim Baker
Big Mac wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:37 pm
For me, the big questions about Kingmaker Adventure Path are going to be:
  • Is the Pathfinder 2e or D&D 5e content going to be easier for me to understand and
  • Can I use the OGC to retroconvert anything new to 3e rules.
I suspect it will remain easier to convert Pathfinder 1e content to D&D 3e, as Pathfinder was created with the intention of being compatible with 3.5. Pathfinder 2e is a significant change from 1e, and D&D 5e is equally different from D&D 3e.

That being said, each game is created with OGC, so as long as you don't use Product Identity, you can convert freely.
Big Mac wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:37 pm
As well as tapping into the 5e market, this hybrid Adventure Path is probably going to be a way that Paizo's designers can do a stealth comparison of how well the monster rules of Pathfinder 2e hold up against the monster rules of 5e D&D.

If one of the monsters works a lot better under 5th Edition D&D rules than it does under 2nd Edition Pathfinder rules, that might allow them to go back and tweak their 2e core rules.
Pathfinder 2e will be available in three months. I'm not super familiar with publishing schedules, but I believe the books are likely already being published to hit that date. I have no doubt we'll see errata over time, as we do with any game that continues to receive support from a publisher. But I'm sure there's an opportunity remaining to tweak any of the core rules before the release.

I'm interested to see if the monsters' overall feel in play varies from game to game. That's rather subjective, I know, but D&D 5e and Pathfinder 2e have different design philosophies, and that extends to their monsters. I'm not sure if a conversion will be able to capture that elusive "feel." It probably also depends on who they have doing the conversion. How much experience will the designer have with 5e rules?

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 6:58 am
by Tim Baker
The crowdfunding campaign has now launched. An interesting detail that wasn't in the original press release is that there's also a Pathfinder 1st Edition version of the bestiary. So there's support for 1st and 2nd Edition Pathfinder, as well as 5th Edition D&D.
https://www.gameontabletop.com/cf194/ki ... rsary.html

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 9:10 pm
by Princess Strega
Tim Baker wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 6:58 am
The crowdfunding campaign has now launched. An interesting detail that wasn't in the original press release is that there's also a Pathfinder 1st Edition version of the bestiary. So there's support for 1st and 2nd Edition Pathfinder, as well as 5th Edition D&D.
https://www.gameontabletop.com/cf194/ki ... rsary.html
Awesome! I wasn't too keen on backing this, but this just might throw a monkey wrench in my fiscal planning for the month.

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 10:52 pm
by Tim Baker
Angel Tarragon wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 9:10 pm
Awesome! I wasn't too keen on backing this, but this just might throw a monkey wrench in my fiscal planning for the month.
The lack of an all-digital level that provides an option to add on PDFs of the bestiaries has turned me off. The potential for stretch goals that are only available if you back at the $150+ level is discouraging as well. I really like crowdfunding campaigns where there's an all-digital level that includes all digital stretch goals.

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 1:05 am
by Princess Strega
Tim Baker wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 10:52 pm
The lack of an all-digital level that provides an option to add on PDFs of the bestiaries has turned me off. The potential for stretch goals that are only available if you back at the $150+ level is discouraging as well. I really like crowdfunding campaigns where there's an all-digital level that includes all digital stretch goals.
Yeah, I've been kicking around my budget trying to make things work, that $150 tier plus add-ons is too steep for me. I wish Paizo would have waited three until October or November to launch this.

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:37 am
by Big Mac
Tim Baker wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 6:05 am
Big Mac wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:37 pm
For me, the big questions about Kingmaker Adventure Path are going to be:
  • Is the Pathfinder 2e or D&D 5e content going to be easier for me to understand and
  • Can I use the OGC to retroconvert anything new to 3e rules.
I suspect it will remain easier to convert Pathfinder 1e content to D&D 3e, as Pathfinder was created with the intention of being compatible with 3.5. Pathfinder 2e is a significant change from 1e, and D&D 5e is equally different from D&D 3e.

That being said, each game is created with OGC, so as long as you don't use Product Identity, you can convert freely.
Yep. That is where I am now.

I'm not getting direct support for 3rd Edition, but it is technically possible to publish free or commercial conversion documents for everything that comes out of publishers who use the OGL.
Tim Baker wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 6:05 am
Big Mac wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:37 pm
As well as tapping into the 5e market, this hybrid Adventure Path is probably going to be a way that Paizo's designers can do a stealth comparison of how well the monster rules of Pathfinder 2e hold up against the monster rules of 5e D&D.

If one of the monsters works a lot better under 5th Edition D&D rules than it does under 2nd Edition Pathfinder rules, that might allow them to go back and tweak their 2e core rules.
Pathfinder 2e will be available in three months. I'm not super familiar with publishing schedules, but I believe the books are likely already being published to hit that date. I have no doubt we'll see errata over time, as we do with any game that continues to receive support from a publisher. But I'm sure there's an opportunity remaining to tweak any of the core rules before the release.

I'm interested to see if the monsters' overall feel in play varies from game to game. That's rather subjective, I know, but D&D 5e and Pathfinder 2e have different design philosophies, and that extends to their monsters. I'm not sure if a conversion will be able to capture that elusive "feel." It probably also depends on who they have doing the conversion. How much experience will the designer have with 5e rules?
The interesting thing about having 5e D&D, Pathfinder 2e and Pathfinder 1e stats for the same monster is that you can look to see what ability is present and absent in each version. And as all versions are official, you know that is what the core design team thought worked in each case. (It's not a matter of a fan converting stuff and overlooking something.)

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:38 am
by Big Mac
Tim Baker wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 6:58 am
The crowdfunding campaign has now launched. An interesting detail that wasn't in the original press release is that there's also a Pathfinder 1st Edition version of the bestiary. So there's support for 1st and 2nd Edition Pathfinder, as well as 5th Edition D&D.
https://www.gameontabletop.com/cf194/ki ... rsary.html
That's good.

I wonder when support for 1e Pathfinder will officially end. I presume there will be some overlap.

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:39 am
by Big Mac
Angel Tarragon wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:05 am
Tim Baker wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 10:52 pm
The lack of an all-digital level that provides an option to add on PDFs of the bestiaries has turned me off. The potential for stretch goals that are only available if you back at the $150+ level is discouraging as well. I really like crowdfunding campaigns where there's an all-digital level that includes all digital stretch goals.
Yeah, I've been kicking around my budget trying to make things work, that $150 tier plus add-ons is too steep for me. I wish Paizo would have waited three until October or November to launch this.
I think the two of you could wait.

You don't really need all three versions of the same book.

Are they really going to charge you $150 for just the one version of the PDFs? I don't think so.

So long as they hit the funding target(s) this will come out and there will be reviews and you can decide on the PDF options then.

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 3:08 pm
by Tim Baker
Big Mac wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:37 am
The interesting thing about having 5e D&D, Pathfinder 2e and Pathfinder 1e stats for the same monster is that you can look to see what ability is present and absent in each version. And as all versions are official, you know that is what the core design team thought worked in each case. (It's not a matter of a fan converting stuff and overlooking something.)
The 5e conversion of the bestiary is being done by Legendary Games. The Pathfinder 1e conversion will be done by an as-of-yet-undetermined 3rd party. So these won't be fan conversions, but they won't be done by the same people who designed the monsters for Pathfinder 2e either.

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 3:16 pm
by Tim Baker
Big Mac wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:39 am
You don't really need all three versions of the same book.

Are they really going to charge you $150 for just the one version of the PDFs? I don't think so.
The $150 level is for the physical adventure and NPC book in a Kickstarter-exclusive slipcase. The PDFs of these books are included at that level, but not the conversion bestiaries. I don't have the shelf space for more physical products, and it's disappointing when a Kickstarter only offers stretch goals to those backers at the physical product level (unless it's something like dice or other physical objects).

I don't want both bestiaries, but I want the 5e version. As you said, it appears to be best to just wait. I don't see any advantage to backing now, other than a small contribution toward stretch goals. But $50 doesn't sound like a discounted price for the PDF, and if I wait, I avoid the risk that's inherent with crowdfunded products.

Re: [Golarion] Updated Kingmaker AP for Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 3:19 pm
by timemrick
My interest in Adventure Paths is very limited, because I simply don't have the time to run such long campaigns in addition to my homebrew campaigns. But I do have a comment to make on one part of this project:

The 5E bestiary is being developed by a third party publisher, Legendary Games. I was sorely disappointed by a recent Kickstarter from that company (Pirate Campaign Compendium) that was released for both PF and 5E. I backed it for the 5E book only, which was converted from the PF version that they wrote first, plus a lot of additional nautical material from older Paizo sources. But the conversion was a sloppy, rushed mess, which has turned me off from buying any future Legendary Games titles. I can only hope that, for the sake of the people who want the Kingmaker 5e Bestiary, that Paizo's editors get some quality time with the text before it goes to print.