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Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:42 pm
by Philosopher
It seems that the CKG, which has been expected for around five years now, has finally been released. A few people already have a copy, and one person is reporting about the contents here. It looks great, and I'm really looking forward to getting a copy. I'm especially intrigued by the alternate magic system, the 3e-style sorcerer, the Gygaxian world-building... and a bunch of other stuff mentioned.

There's also a photo of the table of contents: http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo15 ... 0_1579.jpg

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:08 pm
by Angel Tarragon
I may buy this eventually as some of the chapters in Part 2 look like they'd be right up my alley. And heck, depending on how much I'm impressed with the book I might buy the C&C Core Rulebook.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:16 am
by rabindranath72
Ah! Finally! :D

...and I found the first typo in the table of contents: Atrributes :evil:

If TLG keeps its quality control as-is, I think I am going to wait for the 2nd or 3rd printing. :(

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:23 pm
by Dragonhelm
Finally! I remember asking Steve Chenault when this was coming out years ago, and he gave me an answer that, at first, I thought was a bit snarky. Turns out his estimates on it being a while were spot on, if not understated.

Looks like some solid content. Love that it gives guidelines on how to make homebrew races. What of classes, though?

Looking forward to getting this book.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:49 pm
by Philosopher
Dragonhelm wrote:Finally! I remember asking Steve Chenault when this was coming out years ago, and he gave me an answer that, at first, I thought was a bit snarky. Turns out his estimates on it being a while were spot on, if not understated.
IIRC, he originally didn't want to publish a CKG, as he thought the game should be simple with all the rules in the PHB. Apparently, Gygax only agreed to do all the stuff on Castle Zagyg on the condition that a CKG be published, which, if true, is rather bizarre. In any case, I'm glad with the sort of product they ended up with - it may add a bit of complexity, but it's all optional. I always tinker with games, but it's always great to see how others tinker with it. A great source of ideas.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:21 am
by dulsi
rabindranath72 wrote:...and I found the first typo in the table of contents: Atrributes :evil:
I've heard they have quality control issues but I'm confused by this type of error. This shouldn't get through spellcheck. (I also personally think the table of contents should be auto generated from having applied the appropriate styles for the program to generate.) How come they continue to have this problem?

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:05 am
by rabindranath72
dulsi wrote:
rabindranath72 wrote:...and I found the first typo in the table of contents: Atrributes :evil:
I've heard they have quality control issues but I'm confused by this type of error. This shouldn't get through spellcheck. (I also personally think the table of contents should be auto generated from having applied the appropriate styles for the program to generate.) How come they continue to have this problem?
Exactly. I have no idea. Possibly they are not doing things in an automated way :?

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:29 am
by Philosopher
rabindranath72 wrote:
dulsi wrote:
rabindranath72 wrote:...and I found the first typo in the table of contents: Atrributes :evil:
I've heard they have quality control issues but I'm confused by this type of error. This shouldn't get through spellcheck. (I also personally think the table of contents should be auto generated from having applied the appropriate styles for the program to generate.) How come they continue to have this problem?
Exactly. I have no idea. Possibly they are not doing things in an automated way :?
I'm under the impression that TLG is a very small operation.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:49 pm
by rabindranath72
Philosopher wrote:
rabindranath72 wrote:
dulsi wrote:
rabindranath72 wrote:...and I found the first typo in the table of contents: Atrributes :evil:
I've heard they have quality control issues but I'm confused by this type of error. This shouldn't get through spellcheck. (I also personally think the table of contents should be auto generated from having applied the appropriate styles for the program to generate.) How come they continue to have this problem?
Exactly. I have no idea. Possibly they are not doing things in an automated way :?
I'm under the impression that TLG is a very small operation.
Well, even using Microsoft Word these things should not happen. When you setup the layout, the generation of the table is automatic. And the spellcheckers are quite sofisticated for this sort of errors.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:59 pm
by Philosopher
It looks like there's been a delay in getting the hardcover printed. According to the OP in this thread, they're trying to fix as many typos as possible before it prints.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:49 am
by dulsi
Philosopher wrote:I'm under the impression that TLG is a very small operation.
I don't find that a good enough answer. Every review of a TLG product I have seen has commented on their poor quality control. You shouldn't be doing that as a commercial company. Like rabindranath72 joked about, customers will stop committing to your first printing. Poor sales of the first printing might put financial strain and prevent a future printing. Granted it looks like this is an earlier pdf release with the hopes of finding errors before print.

Dark Dungeons was put together by one man and still had a high quality IMHO.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:21 am
by Philosopher
dulsi wrote:
Philosopher wrote:I'm under the impression that TLG is a very small operation.
I don't find that a good enough answer. Every review of a TLG product I have seen has commented on their poor quality control. You shouldn't be doing that as a commercial company. Like rabindranath72 joked about, customers will stop committing to your first printing. Poor sales of the first printing might put financial strain and prevent a future printing. Granted it looks like this is an earlier pdf release with the hopes of finding errors before print.

Dark Dungeons was put together by one man and still had a high quality IMHO.
Very good points. I wasn't excusing it, so much as trying to explain it. Maybe their size still leaves it unexplained, though. It's just that I remember WotC being quite bad when it came to editing, and if a company of their size can't get it right, I'm less surprised about TLG.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:13 am
by Azaghal
Quality control is a matter of desire not size of company or financial resources.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:46 am
by maddog
Azaghal wrote:Quality control is a matter of desire not size of company or financial resources.
Very true. I used to be excited about C&C but the low quality ended that. :( I won't buy a typo filled gaming book.
--Ray.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:06 am
by Philosopher
Azaghal wrote:Quality control is a matter of desire not size of company or financial resources.
It's not either/or. Resources do make a difference.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:47 am
by Azaghal
Philosopher wrote:
Azaghal wrote:Quality control is a matter of desire not size of company or financial resources.
It's not either/or. Resources do make a difference.
Financial resources can limit artwork and presentation certainly however, financial resources should not be a restriction on quality of the product. If the product is all text with no art at all that can be a great product or a bad product dependent on how good the writing and editing are. If WotC had a monkey type a manuscritpt of 250 pages and spent 1mil on artwork it would still be a monkey typed manuscript.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 6:38 pm
by Philosopher
So, I initially posted about this back in December. And only just now finally received my copy. Barely had a chance to browse through it so far (and it may be a while yet with my schedule), but I'm happy to have received it, and wanted to share. :)
rabindranath72 wrote:Ah! Finally! :D

...and I found the first typo in the table of contents: Atrributes :evil:

If TLG keeps its quality control as-is, I think I am going to wait for the 2nd or 3rd printing. :(
FWIW, I noticed that one typo you found has been fixed. So at least the hardcover has gone through another edit.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 10:21 am
by rabindranath72
Hi Selman,
welcome back! Hopefully eveything is fine on your side :)
When you feel like it, I would appreciate an honest opinion on the book. I have yet to pick it up, I am still on the fence about its utility; also I have not played C&C for more than a year, and with my next move in two weeks, I will lose the gaming group I have now, so things look grim.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 12:20 pm
by Havard
Looking at the index, I expected more DM's advice and such?

-Havard

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:14 am
by rabindranath72
I have been reading the preview, and it seems there are still lots of typos. In this era of word processors it's simply not excusable. Quite frankly, I am done with TLG.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:26 pm
by Philosopher
rabindranath72 wrote:Hi Selman,
welcome back! Hopefully eveything is fine on your side :)
Thanks Antonio. :)

Things are... getting better, I suppose, but I'm afraid I wouldn't quite say things are fine just yet. Hope you're well.
rabindranath72 wrote:When you feel like it, I would appreciate an honest opinion on the book. I have yet to pick it up, I am still on the fence about its utility; also I have not played C&C for more than a year, and with my next move in two weeks, I will lose the gaming group I have now, so things look grim.
Will do! It may be a while, but I'll definitely share my thoughts once I've read through it.

For now, I can give my initial impression. While I'm glad I picked it up, I'm not sure if it's a book I'd recommend to everyone. One of the charms of C&C is that it is a simple rules-light game. The CKG could sort of be described as turning it into Advanced C&C. Maybe that's not a perfectly apt description (it's not quite that complicated, and it's all optional), but that's the basic direction it takes the game. It expands the classes with abilities out to level 24, it gives alternate methods for generating stats, it gives things like height, weight, and age tables for each race, it expands the equipment lists with things like room and board, etc. It's got a brief presentation of mass combat rules (I haven't looked at this at all yet). It also has lots of advice for running the game, plus explanations of some of its features (such as why illusionists were given healing magic). Its basic attitude of being willing to tweak the rules is one I support.

If you're an experienced gamer, especially if you're experienced with D&D in particular, then you don't need this book. However, it may spark some ideas for those who like to tinker (for example, the options of having armour give damage reduction or of using a spell point system are intriguing). If you're new to the game, you still don't need the book, but it may fill in some gaps, and the advice could be helpful. On the other hand, the inexperienced gamer may find it overwhelming, given all the material there.

Re: Castle Keepers Guide out at last

Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 11:16 pm
by Big Mac
I'm seeing a lot of talk about the lateness of publication of this book (and typos in C&C products) but has anyone actually gone through the Castle Keeper's Guide yet?

I know that a lot of books, of this type, are useable by people playing different rules. Is there any generic GMs advice that is in CKG?