Am I mistaken or..

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trashHeap
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Am I mistaken or..

Post by trashHeap » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:31 pm

Am I mistaken or was there an word or odt file available from the previous darker dungeons website containing the rules? The reason I ask is that I was thinking about trying to make my own custom variation of D&D BECMI, with custom races and the like. Just looking for something easier to work from than the PDF.

- Wes

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Re: Am I mistaken or..

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:20 pm

trashHeap wrote:Am I mistaken or was there an word or odt file available from the previous darker dungeons website containing the rules? The reason I ask is that I was thinking about trying to make my own custom variation of D&D BECMI, with custom races and the like. Just looking for something easier to work from than the PDF.

- Wes
You are mistaken, but here is a link to the source files for Dark Dungeons anyway. It's in Publisher 2007 format, because that's the software I used to write it.
Check out Gurbintroll Games for my free RPGs (including Dark Dungeons and FASERIP)!

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Re: Am I mistaken or..

Post by Unandrogynous Elf » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:11 pm

Blacky the Blackball wrote:
trashHeap wrote:Am I mistaken or was there an word or odt file available from the previous darker dungeons website containing the rules? The reason I ask is that I was thinking about trying to make my own custom variation of D&D BECMI, with custom races and the like. Just looking for something easier to work from than the PDF.

- Wes
You are mistaken, but here is a link to the source files for Dark Dungeons anyway. It's in Publisher 2007 format, because that's the software I used to write it.
Hello, new on the forum and starting the next few days to DM Darker Dungeons...
Would it be possible to share the sources of DerD also? :)
I think it would be very useful, since I was planning to make a quickstarter and some additional classes.
On that topic, what's your opinion on "expansions" to your ruleset?
From past posts on the forum, I have had the feeling that you are against that for DD in order to keep it closer to the original sources and in a single book, but probably that would not hold for DerD.

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Re: Am I mistaken or..

Post by Big Mac » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:16 pm

trashHeap wrote:Am I mistaken or was there an word or odt file available from the previous darker dungeons website containing the rules? The reason I ask is that I was thinking about trying to make my own custom variation of D&D BECMI, with custom races and the like. Just looking for something easier to work from than the PDF.

- Wes
Welcome to The Piazza, Wes.

If you ever do make customised content for Dark Dungeons, please consider posting your modifications here, so that others can see them. :)
Unandrogynous Elf wrote:Hello, new on the forum and starting the next few days to DM Darker Dungeons...
Welcome to The Piazza, Unandrogynous Elf!
Unandrogynous Elf wrote:Would it be possible to share the sources of DerD also? :)
I think it would be very useful, since I was planning to make a quickstarter and some additional classes.
I'll say the same to you, that I said to Wes. Please consider sharing any new content you make with other Darker Dungeons fans here. :)
Unandrogynous Elf wrote:On that topic, what's your opinion on "expansions" to your ruleset?
From past posts on the forum, I have had the feeling that you are against that for DD in order to keep it closer to the original sources and in a single book, but probably that would not hold for DerD.
I got the feeling that Blacky was against having himself expand Dark Dungeons (and presumably Darker Dungeons). I never really got the feeling he was against other people adding to Dark Dungeons. But I'll be very interested to see what his reply is. :cool:
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Re: Am I mistaken or..

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:08 am

Unandrogynous Elf wrote:Hello, new on the forum and starting the next few days to DM Darker Dungeons...
Welcome to The Piazza!
Would it be possible to share the sources of DerD also? :)
I think it would be very useful, since I was planning to make a quickstarter and some additional classes.
No problem at all - although I won't be able to do it till the weekend, since the files are now archived on my back-up drive and I don't have access to that from here (I'm posting from work).
On that topic, what's your opinion on "expansions" to your ruleset?
From past posts on the forum, I have had the feeling that you are against that for DD in order to keep it closer to the original sources and in a single book, but probably that would not hold for DerD.
I'm not against expansions at all.

I've said that I'm not going to do any expansions because I prefer to use single-book systems - that's why I did Darker Dungeons as a separate single-book system rather than as an expansion to Dark Dungeons - but I'm more than happy for other people to do that sort of thing.

Also, If you want to discuss your changes and get feedback as you're making them, then here's a good place to do it.
Check out Gurbintroll Games for my free RPGs (including Dark Dungeons and FASERIP)!

(I'm a moderator for "The Orc's Revenge" and its sub-forums. If I need to post anything officially as a mod, rather than just as a user, I'll post it in green.)

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Re: Am I mistaken or..

Post by Unandrogynous Elf » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:16 pm

Blacky the Blackball wrote:
Unandrogynous Elf wrote:Hello, new on the forum and starting the next few days to DM Darker Dungeons...
Welcome to The Piazza!
Thanks Blacky, and thanks to Big Mac also.
From what I have seen around here, I am convinced that I should have started reading EU based RPG forums a long time before, really refreshing... :)
But that is a topic for another post...
Blacky the Blackball wrote:
Would it be possible to share the sources of DerD also? :)
I think it would be very useful, since I was planning to make a quickstarter and some additional classes.
No problem at all - although I won't be able to do it till the weekend, since the files are now archived on my back-up drive and I don't have access to that from here (I'm posting from work).
Thank you, I will be waiting patiently.
As a side note, I love your layout of your games, but it really is a pity that there is no open source DTP application in Open Office/Libre Office that can import Publisher files.
I have seen that you are using the OGL licence and then released the game in the Public Domain. How should the derived work be licensed?
Blacky the Blackball wrote:
On that topic, what's your opinion on "expansions" to your ruleset?
From past posts on the forum, I have had the feeling that you are against that for DD in order to keep it closer to the original sources and in a single book, but probably that would not hold for DerD.
I'm not against expansions at all.
I've said that I'm not going to do any expansions because I prefer to use single-book systems - that's why I did Darker Dungeons as a separate single-book system rather than as an expansion to Dark Dungeons - but I'm more than happy for other people to do that sort of thing.
Also, If you want to discuss your changes and get feedback as you're making them, then here's a good place to do it.
It's great to have your support. I really like the work you made on DerD, I think that it makes a wonderful job of updating the BECMI rules while leaving them almost completely compatible with the old material. :D
More than changes in the rules, right now I would like to make some add-ons, mainly porting BECMI(or D&D clones) classes to the DerD format.
Also I would like to make something similar to AD&D 2e kits, in order to allow some differences in play style among different characters od the same class. I never liked the feeling that the mechanical differences between characters of the same class in BECMI are mainly due to their collections of magical items.
I will share everything on the forums for opinions, before making a final document for distribution.
As an addendum, I excuse myself for the looong sentences and occasional mistakes, english is not my native language.

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Re: Am I mistaken or..

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:37 pm

Unandrogynous Elf wrote:
Blacky the Blackball wrote:
Would it be possible to share the sources of DerD also? :)
I think it would be very useful, since I was planning to make a quickstarter and some additional classes.
No problem at all - although I won't be able to do it till the weekend, since the files are now archived on my back-up drive and I don't have access to that from here (I'm posting from work).
Thank you, I will be waiting patiently.
Here we are!
As a side note, I love your layout of your games, but it really is a pity that there is no open source DTP application in Open Office/Libre Office that can import Publisher files.
As with Dark Dungeons, these are in Microsoft Publisher 2007 format. All my more recent stuff is done in InDesign CS5, but I didn't have that when I wrote Dark and Darker Dungeons.
I have seen that you are using the OGL licence and then released the game in the Public Domain. How should the derived work be licensed?
That's a very good question.

If I had my choice I'd put the whole game in the Public Domain (like I have with Codename: Spandex), but unfortunately I can't because I have to use the OGL license for the stuff I've derived from existing OGL publications. This means that if you want to adapt the game you'll need to do the same.

So basically, if you're just extracting bits that are unique to Dark/Darker Dungeons (e.g. the cosmology and skysailing rules) you can do what you like with them because they're Public Domain. But if you're adapting bigger chunks that include game mechanics and terminology that I've emulated via the OGL then you'll also need to use the OGL and add your own copyright to section 15 like I did.

From what you say about your project, I expect you'll need to do the latter.

It's great to have your support. I really like the work you made on DerD, I think that it makes a wonderful job of updating the BECMI rules while leaving them almost completely compatible with the old material. :D
More than changes in the rules, right now I would like to make some add-ons, mainly porting BECMI(or D&D clones) classes to the DerD format.
Also I would like to make something similar to AD&D 2e kits, in order to allow some differences in play style among different characters od the same class. I never liked the feeling that the mechanical differences between characters of the same class in BECMI are mainly due to their collections of magical items.
I will share everything on the forums for opinions, before making a final document for distribution.
That sounds great.
As an addendum, I excuse myself for the looong sentences and occasional mistakes, english is not my native language.
Where are you from? I can guarantee you that your English is much better than my ability with whatever your native tongue is!

We've got Norwegians, Italians and Spaniards on this board, as well as Brits, Aussies, Americans and other native English speakers of course...
Check out Gurbintroll Games for my free RPGs (including Dark Dungeons and FASERIP)!

(I'm a moderator for "The Orc's Revenge" and its sub-forums. If I need to post anything officially as a mod, rather than just as a user, I'll post it in green.)

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Re: Am I mistaken or..

Post by Unandrogynous Elf » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:29 pm

Blacky the Blackball wrote: Here we are!
Thanks a lot!
Blacky the Blackball wrote:
As a side note, I love your layout of your games, but it really is a pity that there is no open source DTP application in Open Office/Libre Office that can import Publisher files.
As with Dark Dungeons, these are in Microsoft Publisher 2007 format. All my more recent stuff is done in InDesign CS5, but I didn't have that when I wrote Dark and Darker Dungeons.
Unfortunately, the Publisher files export just gives the text part without any formatting, so everything must be redone. Does InDesign import Publisher?
Blacky the Blackball wrote:
I have seen that you are using the OGL licence and then released the game in the Public Domain. How should the derived work be licensed?
That's a very good question.

If I had my choice I'd put the whole game in the Public Domain (like I have with Codename: Spandex), but unfortunately I can't because I have to use the OGL license for the stuff I've derived from existing OGL publications. This means that if you want to adapt the game you'll need to do the same.

So basically, if you're just extracting bits that are unique to Dark/Darker Dungeons (e.g. the cosmology and skysailing rules) you can do what you like with them because they're Public Domain. But if you're adapting bigger chunks that include game mechanics and terminology that I've emulated via the OGL then you'll also need to use the OGL and add your own copyright to section 15 like I did.

From what you say about your project, I expect you'll need to do the latter.
No problem with that, I was just wondering how derived work must be licensed. I was thinking about some type of Creative Commons licence, if it is compatible with your previous choices.
Blacky the Blackball wrote:
It's great to have your support. I really like the work you made on DerD, I think that it makes a wonderful job of updating the BECMI rules while leaving them almost completely compatible with the old material. :D
More than changes in the rules, right now I would like to make some add-ons, mainly porting BECMI(or D&D clones) classes to the DerD format.
Also I would like to make something similar to AD&D 2e kits, in order to allow some differences in play style among different characters od the same class. I never liked the feeling that the mechanical differences between characters of the same class in BECMI are mainly due to their collections of magical items.
I will share everything on the forums for opinions, before making a final document for distribution.
That sounds great.
Hope you will keep the same opinion after seeing the stuff... :P
Blacky the Blackball wrote:
As an addendum, I excuse myself for the looong sentences and occasional mistakes, english is not my native language.
Where are you from? I can guarantee you that your English is much better than my ability with whatever your native tongue is!

We've got Norwegians, Italians and Spaniards on this board, as well as Brits, Aussies, Americans and other native English speakers of course...
I am from Apulia, in SE Italy. The gaming community is pretty small around here.
I hope I will manage to get some sorely needed heavy editing from native speakers around here :)

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Re: Am I mistaken or..

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:00 pm

Unandrogynous Elf wrote:Unfortunately, the Publisher files export just gives the text part without any formatting, so everything must be redone. Does InDesign import Publisher?
Sadly, no. What software do you have access to?
No problem with that, I was just wondering how derived work must be licensed. I was thinking about some type of Creative Commons licence, if it is compatible with your previous choices.
Unfortunately it isn't. If you're using OGL-derived stuff you must use the OGL rather than Creative Commons.
I am from Apulia, in SE Italy. The gaming community is pretty small around here.
I hope I will manage to get some sorely needed heavy editing from native speakers around here :)
I think we've a poster from Milan, and one of our posters in the UK is actually an Italian immigrant. Hopefully one of them might be able to help.
Check out Gurbintroll Games for my free RPGs (including Dark Dungeons and FASERIP)!

(I'm a moderator for "The Orc's Revenge" and its sub-forums. If I need to post anything officially as a mod, rather than just as a user, I'll post it in green.)

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Re: Am I mistaken or..

Post by Big Mac » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:04 pm

Unandrogynous Elf wrote:No problem with that, I was just wondering how derived work must be licensed. I was thinking about some type of Creative Commons licence, if it is compatible with your previous choices.
Unfortunately you can not reuse "Open Game Content" without the Open Game Licence. Section 10 of the OGL covers this:
OGL wrote:10 Copy of this License: You MUST include a copy of this License with every copy of the Open Game Content You Distribute.
Using two licences sounds like a way to go, but Section 2 prevents you doing this:
OGL wrote:2. The License: This License applies to any Open Game Content that contains a notice indicating that the Open Game Content may only be Used under and in terms of this License. You must affix such a notice to any Open Game Content that you Use. No terms may be added to or subtracted from this License except as described by the License itself. No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License.
If you do want to make Darker Dungeons Kits, I would suggest you start a thread (or threads) to post your work in the forum. That will mean that you can get creative input from others (and fix any bugs) before you start the work of splicing your new material into Blacky the Blackball's existing work.
Unandrogynous Elf wrote:
Blacky the Blackball wrote:Where are you from? I can guarantee you that your English is much better than my ability with whatever your native tongue is!

We've got Norwegians, Italians and Spaniards on this board, as well as Brits, Aussies, Americans and other native English speakers of course...
I am from Apulia, in SE Italy. The gaming community is pretty small around here.
I hope I will manage to get some sorely needed heavy editing from native speakers around here :)
I've heard there are a lot of Mystara fans in Italy. I wonder if anyone out there would be interested in seeing Dark Dungeons or Darker Dungeons translated into Italian. :cool:
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Re: Am I mistaken or..

Post by Unandrogynous Elf » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:18 pm

Blacky the Blackball wrote:
Unandrogynous Elf wrote:Unfortunately, the Publisher files export just gives the text part without any formatting, so everything must be redone. Does InDesign import Publisher?
Sadly, no. What software do you have access to?
No problem for me with Publisher, it's just that having the files in an open format could make easier for other people to expand the material.
Blacky the Blackball wrote:
No problem with that, I was just wondering how derived work must be licensed. I was thinking about some type of Creative Commons licence, if it is compatible with your previous choices.
Unfortunately it isn't. If you're using OGL-derived stuff you must use the OGL rather than Creative Commons.
Let it be OGL then.
Blacky the Blackball wrote:
I am from Apulia, in SE Italy. The gaming community is pretty small around here.
I hope I will manage to get some sorely needed heavy editing from native speakers around here :)
I think we've a poster from Milan, and one of our posters in the UK is actually an Italian immigrant. Hopefully one of them might be able to help.
I usually write directly in english, but a native speaker editing is always welcome. :)

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Re: Am I mistaken or..

Post by Unandrogynous Elf » Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:05 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Unandrogynous Elf wrote:No problem with that, I was just wondering how derived work must be licensed. I was thinking about some type of Creative Commons licence, if it is compatible with your previous choices.
Unfortunately you can not reuse "Open Game Content" without the Open Game Licence. Section 10 of the OGL covers this:
OGL wrote:10 Copy of this License: You MUST include a copy of this License with every copy of the Open Game Content You Distribute.
Using two licences sounds like a way to go, but Section 2 prevents you doing this:
OGL wrote:2. The License: This License applies to any Open Game Content that contains a notice indicating that the Open Game Content may only be Used under and in terms of this License. You must affix such a notice to any Open Game Content that you Use. No terms may be added to or subtracted from this License except as described by the License itself. No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License.
Thanks for the heads up, it seems that I will have to decide either for OGL or Public Domain.
Big Mac wrote:If you do want to make Darker Dungeons Kits, I would suggest you start a thread (or threads) to post your work in the forum. That will mean that you can get creative input from others (and fix any bugs) before you start the work of splicing your new material into Blacky the Blackball's existing work.
I am still brainstorming, but I think they would be equally usable in Dark and Darker Dungeons. My biggest worry is that they should not be so good that not taking one would be a disadvantage.
This kind of power creep happened in later AD&D Complete Handbooks, basically making them not optional anymore.
Big Mac wrote:
Unandrogynous Elf wrote:
Blacky the Blackball wrote:Where are you from? I can guarantee you that your English is much better than my ability with whatever your native tongue is!

We've got Norwegians, Italians and Spaniards on this board, as well as Brits, Aussies, Americans and other native English speakers of course...
I am from Apulia, in SE Italy. The gaming community is pretty small around here.
I hope I will manage to get some sorely needed heavy editing from native speakers around here :)
I've heard there are a lot of Mystara fans in Italy. I wonder if anyone out there would be interested in seeing Dark Dungeons or Darker Dungeons translated into Italian. :cool:
Mystara was the first extended TSR setting translated in italian, so for many old/middle school gamers here, it's the first, never forgotten love. :)
A translation of Dark Dungeons or Darker Dungeons would be great, but it would be a really big commitment. Do you know anyone that would volunteer? :shock:

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Re: Am I mistaken or..

Post by Unandrogynous Elf » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:28 pm

Hello, posting an handout I prepared for my players made from the Darker Dungeons sources.
These are the 1st level spells only, divided by class.
I plan to expand it with higher levels in future.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/89883m5pmz0ra ... s_list.pdf

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Re: Am I mistaken or..

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:07 pm

Looking good!

You might want to put in some page-breaks or extra blank lines in order to not split the stat-blocks of the spells over columns or pages.
Check out Gurbintroll Games for my free RPGs (including Dark Dungeons and FASERIP)!

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