[Blood, Guts and Glory] Cuir Bouilli?

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Yaztromo
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[Blood, Guts and Glory] Cuir Bouilli?

Post by Yaztromo » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:27 am

Hi, I noticed that Cuit Bouilli armour is mentioned in BGG and at the time I had the feeling that there may a better (more readily understandable, immediate) word for that, but I didn't have it ready.

I recently came across "Cuirass", that in my head is about the same (is it right?), but the term sound better and more immediately understandable to me (however to somebody else it may sound worse....)
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Re: [Blood, Guts and Glory] Cuir Bouilli?

Post by Sock Puppet » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:33 am

the correct spelling is cuir bouilli. It refers to the construction type ("hard" or "boiled" leather) rather than location. A cuirass could easily (more easily and commonly in fact) be made of solid metal.

Soft leather, such as found on most shoes and leather jackets, isn't really armour in any meaningful sense, although like regular clothing it protects against minor scratches and rain. Hard leather falls into two categories: rawhide has not been tanned or boiled, and will lose hardness (and begin to rot) if subjected to heavy rain or immersed. Hard leather (aka cuir bouilli) is the armour traditionally referred to as "leather armour". It's about as rigid as oak wood.

If that book has made a distinction between cuir bouilli and leather armour, I'd worry about whether they had done the research properly.
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Re: [Blood, Guts and Glory] Cuir Bouilli?

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:33 am

Yaztromo wrote:Hi, I noticed that Cuit Bouilli armour is mentioned in BGG and at the time I had the feeling that there may a better (more readily understandable, immediate) word for that, but I didn't have it ready.
I could have simply called it "hard leather", but I wanted to make more of a distinction between it and other (not hardened) leather armour that you can get; so rather than simply calling them "hard" and "soft" leather I gave them distinctive names. That way you don't get misunderstandings when a player or the GM says that someone is wearing "leather armour" and you then need to qualify which type of leather they're wearing.

I do the same with metal armour. A maille shirt and a hauberk are both made of the same stuff (riveted metal links) but I made sure the names are distinctive. Similarly a breastplate and plate armour are made of the same stuff but have distinctive names.
I recently came across "Cuirass", that in my head is about the same (is it right?), but the term sound better and more immediately understandable to me (however to somebody else it may sound worse....)
That's not the same thing. A cuirass is another name for a breastplate, regardless of what it is made off; whereas cuir bouilli is the name of a type of hardened leather. A cuirass may be made from cuir bouilli, but it may also be metal. If someone was described as wearing a cuirass then in Blood, Guts & Glory terms they could have either of the "Cuir Bouilli" or "Breastplate" armour classes depending on what it's made from.
Sock Puppet wrote:the correct spelling is cuir bouilli. It refers to the construction type ("hard" or "boiled" leather) rather than location. A cuirass could easily (more easily and commonly in fact) be made of solid metal.
I spell it right in the book, and even provide a pronunciation aid for those unused to the term. I also describe how it's made.
Soft leather, such as found on most shoes and leather jackets, isn't really armour in any meaningful sense, although like regular clothing it protects against minor scratches and rain.
Blood, Guts & Glory also has soft leather as an armour class. It simply calls it "Leather", but the description makes it clear that it's soft leather and hides rather than hardened leather. It is indeed pretty useless against most weapons (and, in fact, can be worse than useless sometimes as it's bulky and slows you down). However, it's very useful against the natural attacks of animals. Remember that this is a system based on Rolemaster, so each type of armour has different characteristics against each weapon or type of attack. It's also very cheap and provides excellent weather protection (although there's no actual rules for weather, that's more of a role-played thing).
Hard leather falls into two categories: rawhide has not been tanned or boiled, and will lose hardness (and begin to rot) if subjected to heavy rain or immersed. Hard leather (aka cuir bouilli) is the armour traditionally referred to as "leather armour". It's about as rigid as oak wood.
I ignore rawhide and assume that all hard leather in the game is cuir bouilli.
If that book has made a distinction between cuir bouilli and leather armour, I'd worry about whether they had done the research properly.
Oy! That's my research you're talking about!

I do distinguish between leather and cuir bouilli; but that's not because I treat cuir bouilli and hard leather as different things. It's because I include soft leather as described above.
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Re: [Blood, Guts and Glory] Cuir Bouilli?

Post by Havard » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:26 am

I feel like I am learning more about the different types of armor when reading this thread. I think I first heard about Cuir Bouilli armor while playing Rune Quest.

Interesting point about soft leather/Hide armor being more effective against natural attacks.

I recall AD&D having Padded Armor as well. Does this exist in B,G&G?

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Re: [Blood, Guts and Glory] Cuir Bouilli?

Post by Blacky the Blackball » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:13 pm

Havard wrote:I feel like I am learning more about the different types of armor when reading this thread. I think I first heard about Cuir Bouilli armor while playing Rune Quest.
That's where I first heard the term too, back in the '80s
Interesting point about soft leather/Hide armor being more effective against natural attacks.

I recall AD&D having Padded Armor as well. Does this exist in B,G&G?
BG&G doesn't have padded armour as a separate armour type. If it's sufficiently tough material (presumably waxed linen?) it would count the same as soft leather, and if not it would simply count as normal clothes.

The armour classes in BG&G (which are named rather than numbered) for people who wear armour are:

Unarmoured - normal clothes, which may or may not be lightly padded.
Leather Armour - soft leather/hides/furs; primarily for weather protection but useful against animals and somewhat* useful against weapons.
Scale Armour - soft leather that has many scales or small plates of either metal or cuir bouilli attached to it. Lighter and much more flexible than pure cuir bouilli, but offers less protection.
Cuir Bouilli - leather that's been hardened by boiling it (in water, urine, wax or paraffin). Usually worn as a cuirass or as the classic Roman Lorica Musculata ("muscle armour").
Maille Shirt - a shirt of riveted metal links, worn over padded clothing, that covers the upper arms. Much less heavy than a full hauberk, but offers less protection.
Hauberk - a much heavier shirt of riveted metal links that covers the arms fully and the legs down to the knees. It's very heavy to move around in.
Breastplate - similar to a cuir bouilli cuirass, but made of solid metal instead of hardened leather.
Plate Armour - a set of metal plates with articulated joints; the classic "full plate" suits that you see in museums.

Any of the above can be enhanced by adding a helmet, and most of them can be enhanced by adding greaves and vambraces (Hauberks and Plate Armour don't benefit from the addition of greaves and vambraces because they already cover those locations). Helmets, greaves and vambraces make the armour heavier, and don't directly add to its protection, but they do protect you from the effects of some types of critical hit (important safety tip: always wear a helmet unless you've a very good reason not to).

There is also a set of armour classes for creatures:

Furred Creature - wolves, lions, bears, that sort of thing.
Scaled Creature - creatures with a tough and/or scaly skin, such as crocodiles or rhinos.
Huge Creature - particularly big things such as dragons.
Solid Creature - reserved for golems, elementals, and other things not made of flesh.




*Because of the way the combat system works, with increasing level of success causing increased damage plus more severe criticals, it's more complicated than that. Wearing leather makes you easier to hit and makes it easier to inflict the less severe criticals, but also tends to reduce the amount of damage you take a bit and protects you slightly from the more severe criticals. Basically, wearing leather you're more likely to get wounded - possibly to the point of being taken out of the fight - but less likely to get killed outright, particularly by blunt weapons.
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Re: [Blood, Guts and Glory] Cuir Bouilli?

Post by Yaztromo » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:40 pm

Sock Puppet wrote:the correct spelling is cuir bouilli. It refers to the construction type ("hard" or "boiled" leather) rather than location. A cuirass could easily (more easily and commonly in fact) be made of solid metal.
Hmmm... so I got it wrong again!!! ;(
I'll work more on my English in a future life... :roll:
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Re: [Blood, Guts and Glory] Cuir Bouilli?

Post by Sock Puppet » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:56 pm

Yaztromo wrote:
Sock Puppet wrote:the correct spelling is cuir bouilli. It refers to the construction type ("hard" or "boiled" leather) rather than location. A cuirass could easily (more easily and commonly in fact) be made of solid metal.
Hmmm... so I got it wrong again!!! ;(
I'll work more on my English in a future life... :roll:
French might be more useful ;)
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Re: [Blood, Guts and Glory] Cuir Bouilli?

Post by Yaztromo » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:34 pm

Sock Puppet wrote:
Yaztromo wrote:
Sock Puppet wrote:the correct spelling is cuir bouilli. It refers to the construction type ("hard" or "boiled" leather) rather than location. A cuirass could easily (more easily and commonly in fact) be made of solid metal.
Hmmm... so I got it wrong again!!! ;(
I'll work more on my English in a future life... :roll:
French might be more useful ;)
but I'm Italian!!! :lol:
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