[Nation] The Shimmering Lands

Rebuilding the world in the wake of the Great Rain of Fire.

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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Chimpman » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:35 pm

As you may have noticed I've been posting things rather randomly, and completely out of order that they should probably be read in. Just a warning, but I'll probably continue to do that - posting things as I write them based on whatever happens to spark my interest at the time. Please refer back to the first post if you'd like a chronological ordering of where things should be. I'll try to keep that updated.

The following is a prequel to the "A Day in the Life" piece I posted earlier:
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Mistress Kerghyd

"Who is it?" Jyrdri Kerghyd's eyes darted across the workshop. Someone was there, she knew it. She could hear it. Her breathing heavy, the mistress of Kerghyd Estate put down her tools and walked away from the crystal ball glowing a dim blue-green, and began to poke her nose in every nook and cranny in the workshop. "Once a year... Once a year... Is that too much to ask? When I find you I'll skin you!" Jyrdri was furious. Once a year the Gate of Light opened. Once a year it granted access to an unlimited supply of the radiance. Once a year Jyrdri had the opportunity to collect as much of that power as she could before the Gate closed again. "Where are you!" she shouted, knocking over a stack of dusty parchments with a shriveled left hand.

"From the kitchen? I hear you!" she screamed and ran toward the door flinging it open. She would skin them all... especially that useless gnome Ellrini. But there was no one there. The kitchen was empty. Quiet. The dim blue glow called back to her. "My work... must finish." She glanced around the kitchen once again before returning to the pedestal in the center of he workshop. The copper and marble pedestal consisted of a two foot high column with a large bowl attached at the top. Sitting in the bowl, now pulsing with a faint green light was a large crystal sphere four feet in diameter. Copper pipes ran from the globe, through the pedastal, and into the floor, only to reemerge along one of the walls of the chamber. Knobs, dials and levers of all shapes and sizes adorned the pedestal, and as Jyrdri Kerghyd turned and flipped them the pace of the pulsing light slowed.

Sighing, she patted the crystal globe on the side sending ripples throughout its surface. What should have been solid crystal wavered and danced like a glob of gelatin. "What! Again?" her head shot up and her eyes shone daggers across the room. "Ahhh..." she said, her shoulders slumping as she carased the globe once more. "It's only you."

"...if it's only me, then I must be dreaming."

"Aye," she replied, and brought her head closer to the globe.

"It's close. It's very close."

"Aye, what's close then? Hmmm? What?"

"What you've been looking for. I've found it. ...Durgyr, you know I'm not to be disturbed! You had better have a good explination, or both you and Ellrini will suffer! ...I've found it, Mistress. It's close. It's very close. ...I've found it."

"What in the name...?" Jyrdri spun out of her reverie, her eyes immediatly locked onto the far corner of the ceiling. Something black and amorphous hung there, shimmered for just a moment, and then vanished before recoalescing at the periphery of her vision. Someone was here! Someone was scrying on her! The Mistress of Kerghyd cursed herself even as she threw up a defense. With her good hand firmly placed on the radiance globe, she extended her crippled arm from beneath the folds of her robe and shouted out words of warding. A crackling blue shockwave burst from her hand, driving the shadow out of her presence. "How much do they know?"

"I've found it, Mistress. ...but there is a problem..."
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Chimpman » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:41 am

Ok, time for something fun. Here is a preview of things to come... Southeastern Shimmering Lands in 8mi/hex. Here you can see the 3 most south easterly Gatherholds and surrounding estates. There are three more to the west (not pictured) centered roughly over Rockhome, Vestland, and what will become the Land of Black Sand, and one more on the Bridge of Oost, east of the Gate of Light.

Phew... this is a really big map...
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Seer of Yhog » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:57 pm

Cool!

Now you've upped the ante - I'll have to do an 8-mile hex map of Mogreth....
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Havard » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:01 pm

The maps are awesome! Really helpful in visualizing this setting :)

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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Chimpman » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:59 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:Cool!

Now you've upped the ante - I'll have to do an 8-mile hex map of Mogreth....
:twisted: ...This was not my intention...
Seriously though... yes, I have upped the ante 8-)
Havard wrote:The maps are awesome! Really helpful in visualizing this setting :)
Thanks! It's actually been very helpful to develop the 8mi hex map when going back to the 24mi hex map of the KW. It's funny how that works out. I couldn't have done the 8mi hex map without doing the 24mi hex map first... but after that the 8mi hex map has been instrumental in helping me to refine the 24mi one. :shock: Now my only fear is that I will have to do the entire KW in 8mi before I can get a good 24 mi map! I can't wait to see what Geoff comes up with for Mogreth (no pressure :roll: ), and I suspect we'll use that to refine the 24mi hex map even further.
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Post by Scaevola » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:30 am

This is very nice, I would really like to find a way to integrate this with my history of the dwarves, with Agathokles' Taymora and, through Geoff's work on Mogreth, with my take on Zargon and Nithia.

There is a lot of potential, but it's always difficult to merge different authors' points of view and to find the time to do that even if people are willing to try.
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Scaevola » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:10 pm

Chimpman wrote: NOTE: This section needs to be cleaned up a bit. My original intention was to have the term Moadreg refer to the dwarven inhabitants of this land (a precursor to the word Mordrigswerg). In some instances I use it also to refer to other races (most notably gnomes). I haven't decided yet whether the term should apply to any citizen of the country or simply just to the dwarves, though I'm leaning toward the former.
I was actually wondering whether this is appropriate. I mean, the "Modrigswerg" name comes from "Moadreg" + "dverg" (where dverg is the scandinavian term for dwarf), and we know that Modrigswerg means "Rot Dwarves". As a personal preference, I would not like to call the whole dwarven race "Moadreg". I'd prefer it to be a term referring to a clan, or some major clans. It would be odd that they called themselves "rot dwarves" and I don't like too much the idea that Rockhome dwarves are, in fact, reduced to be only a breakaway clan of Modrisgwerg! Then obviously outside of the Shimmering Lands it would make sense for outsiders to call Moadreg the whole of the dwarven race (or even all the Shimmering Lands' population), a classic case of anthonomasia.

Moreover I'd give the Shimmering Lands also a dwarven name: like Rockhome is in fact Denwarf, Shimmering Lands should be Klingars ("shimmering homes"). What do you think about it? So maybe the name by which dwarves call themselves could be still simply the "original" Warves (Denwarfs or Denwarves came after 1800 BC) and the collected people of the Shimmering Lands would call themselves something like Klingere ("shimmering ones"; also to avoid confusing them with Klingons :mrgreen: that's another campaign world)

Apart from these notes, I must say I like very much the ideas that you have regarding the kingdom, and if you allow me I would surely like to help out fleshing details. However, I haven't yet finished to read all the stuff, I'll give more comments as I progress.
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Scaevola » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:58 pm

Maybe I haven't read thorougly enough, but from your work it seems that all dwarves in the Shimmering Lands are coming from Skothar. From what I read in HW (and I am not the only one in this, Zendrolion shares the same belief in his posts about Etnography at the Italian Mystara forum), I had always believed that the Skotharian dwarves were completely destroyed (as they were too close to Blackmoor) and that the surviving dwarves were those already in Brun. Wouldn't it maybe fit more appropriately to other canon and fan-made products to have the Skotharian dwarves join the Brunian ones and bring along Radiomancy corruption? If we assume a ratio of 75 to 25, most of these Skotharian dwarves would make out the bulk of leading dwarves (probably armed with better magic and technology). Most Brunian dwarves would make up the middle class, the clans really concerned with ruling, the gnome-friendly ones etc, thus making up, in the end, the survivors from which the new way of Kagyar will sprout.

Last but not least (for now), what do you intend to do make out of the Dark Elves mentioned in GAZ7 as the ones responsible for triggering the Modrisgwerg's decadence?
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Chimpman » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:27 am

Thanks for taking the time to look through all these posts and leave comments Guilio, I really do appreciate it.
Scaevola wrote:I was actually wondering whether this is appropriate. I mean, the "Modrigswerg" name comes from "Moadreg" + "dverg" (where dverg is the scandinavian term for dwarf), and we know that Modrigswerg means "Rot Dwarves".
This was exactly what I was going for. Keep in mind though that (on Mystara at least) there have been 3000 years between the time when the dwarves referred to themselves as Moadreg, and present day 1000 AC when only a subsection are called Modrigswerg. This is ample time for language to change, and even for words to acquire new meanings (something that can even be seen in the average lifespan of a single person in the RW). Just because Modrig means "rot" in 1000 AC, doesn't necessarily follow that that's what it meant 3000 years ago. In fact I like to think that Moadreg became synonymous with "rot" because of dwarven society and behavior of 2300 BC.

I hope I am making sense here. Moadreg doesn't mean "rot" to the dwarves of 2300 BC, but will take on that meaning to the other races that deal with them, and over the ages (and long after the Moadreg themselves are gone) the word really will come to stand for rot.
As a personal preference, I would not like to call the whole dwarven race "Moadreg". I'd prefer it to be a term referring to a clan, or some major clans. It would be odd that they called themselves "rot dwarves" and I don't like too much the idea that Rockhome dwarves are, in fact, reduced to be only a breakaway clan of Modrisgwerg! Then obviously outside of the Shimmering Lands it would make sense for outsiders to call Moadreg the whole of the dwarven race (or even all the Shimmering Lands' population), a classic case of anthonomasia.
This we may just have to chalk up to personal preference, because that is exactly what I like about the whole idea! I haven't revealed everything about these dwarves yet, although I have hinted at several future events in their timeline. One thing that I'm driving toward is a great civil unrest that will eventually lead to civil war in 1800 BC. The winners will of course become Rockhome dwarves (it's their reward for winning ;) ) while the losers will continue their decline and spiral into rot, eventually becoming the modrigswerg.
Moreover I'd give the Shimmering Lands also a dwarven name: like Rockhome is in fact Denwarf, Shimmering Lands should be Klingars ("shimmering homes"). What do you think about it? So maybe the name by which dwarves call themselves could be still simply the "original" Warves (Denwarfs or Denwarves came after 1800 BC) and the collected people of the Shimmering Lands would call themselves something like Klingere ("shimmering ones"; also to avoid confusing them with Klingons :mrgreen: that's another campaign world)
This is actually something I've been thinking about. You'll need to give me a little more time before I post any of the fruits of my labor, but I'm currently working on regressing the dwarven language to an earlier state. Denwarf for example becomes Dranwyrf (or rather the reverse is actually true ;) ). I've got a fairly simple computer program where I'm inputting all of this and hopefully by the time I'm done I'll be able to generate words in modern dwarven as well as ancient dwarven.

I also think it is likely for dwarves to refer to themselves in the dwarven tongue (although my preference for the name would still be Moadreg for the reasons I've outlined above). Likewise the Shimmering Lands would be given a name in the dwarven language (but most other folk around will still use the common form to refer to it).
Apart from these notes, I must say I like very much the ideas that you have regarding the kingdom, and if you allow me I would surely like to help out fleshing details. However, I haven't yet finished to read all the stuff, I'll give more comments as I progress.
Any help/thoughts/opinions are greatly welcomed, otherwise I'd not be posting here. And even if we can't come to an absolute agreement for certain key points, I think that discussion always helps to solidify ideas.
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Chimpman » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:33 am

Scaevola wrote:Maybe I haven't read thorougly enough, but from your work it seems that all dwarves in the Shimmering Lands are coming from Skothar. From what I read in HW (and I am not the only one in this, Zendrolion shares the same belief in his posts about Etnography at the Italian Mystara forum), I had always believed that the Skotharian dwarves were completely destroyed (as they were too close to Blackmoor) and that the surviving dwarves were those already in Brun. Wouldn't it maybe fit more appropriately to other canon and fan-made products to have the Skotharian dwarves join the Brunian ones and bring along Radiomancy corruption? If we assume a ratio of 75 to 25, most of these Skotharian dwarves would make out the bulk of leading dwarves (probably armed with better magic and technology). Most Brunian dwarves would make up the middle class, the clans really concerned with ruling, the gnome-friendly ones etc, thus making up, in the end, the survivors from which the new way of Kagyar will sprout.
You are correct. It is my assumption that all dwarves in the Shimmering Lands (and their later descendants) are from Skothar. I'll certainly entertain discussions to the contrary, but for now that's the way I'm seeing things.
Last but not least (for now), what do you intend to do make out of the Dark Elves mentioned in GAZ7 as the ones responsible for triggering the Modrisgwerg's decadence?
Good question! I've hinted at some possibilities in the World of Mystara 2300 BC thread, and I promise that I'll expand on that relationship here as well... but for now I've been occupied with other things - foremost on that list being to get my map done (which consequently requires that I finish my language regression so that I can name things properly ;) ).
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Scaevola » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:58 am

Chimpman wrote:Thanks for taking the time to look through all these posts and leave comments Giulio ;) , I really do appreciate it.
It's nice to be back again and talk to you "old folks". I really hope this can last for a while.

Keep in mind though that (on Mystara at least) there have been 3000 years between the time when the dwarves referred to themselves as Moadreg, and present day 1000 AC when only a subsection are called Modrigswerg. This is ample time for language to change, and even for words to acquire new meanings
[...]
I hope I am making sense here. Moadreg doesn't mean "rot" to the dwarves of 2300 BC
Oh yes, it makes perfect sense. I am completely convinced ^^
I'm currently working on regressing the dwarven language to an earlier state.
Oh this is very nice. I can't wait to see what you'll come up with! I made up the names Klingars and Klingere using the chart from GAZ6. I'd definitely like to help creating new words for the language. I'm half crazy, you know. And I love dwarves!
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Scaevola » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:04 am

Chimpman wrote: It is my assumption that all dwarves in the Shimmering Lands (and their later descendants) are from Skothar. I'll certainly entertain discussions to the contrary, but for now that's the way I'm seeing things.
Ok. I don't have my HW maps with me (I work 2600 km away from where I have them, actually), but I am quite sure that in canon there are dwarves living in Brun at the time of the Blackmoor explosion. Assuming that it's not my memory playing tricks to me, I'd just like to know whether you'd just ignore the info, assume them all dead, allow them to develope/be developed along different lines or make them part of the Skotharian ones.
Chimpman wrote:
Scaevola wrote:Last but not least (for now), what do you intend to do make out of the Dark Elves mentioned in GAZ7 as the ones responsible for triggering the Modrisgwerg's decadence?
Good question! I've hinted at some possibilities in the World of Mystara 2300 BC thread
Thanks for the hint, I had read the topic very quickly, I re-read it and found the references to the Deep Elves in Glantri. I guess they also could benefit from some expansion. There might be Deep Elves worshipping Fiends, Deep Elves that become Shadow Elves, Deep Elves with other twists, and so on!
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Chimpman » Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:34 am

Scaevola wrote:It's nice to be back again and talk to you "old folks". I really hope this can last for a while.
I agree. I was away for several years (I had just purchased Eberron and had switched settings for a while). Although I still like Eberron (and I do pull elements of that setting into Mystara), Mystara is my first love. I have to say that one of the things that drew me back into the setting were the people here (and on the MMB before that, and on the MML before that). I'm possibly biased ;), but this is the best group of people around.
Scaevola wrote:Oh this is very nice. I can't wait to see what you'll come up with! I made up the names Klingars and Klingere using the chart from GAZ6. I'd definitely like to help creating new words for the language. I'm half crazy, you know. And I love dwarves!
I'll package up my language generator and make it available in the very near future (I still want to work a few more things out before I do).
Scaevola wrote:Ok. I don't have my HW maps with me (I work 2600 km away from where I have them, actually), but I am quite sure that in canon there are dwarves living in Brun at the time of the Blackmoor explosion. Assuming that it's not my memory playing tricks to me, I'd just like to know whether you'd just ignore the info, assume them all dead, allow them to develope/be developed along different lines or make them part of the Skotharian ones.
You are probably correct, however at the moment I can't find anything to support dwarves on Brun before 2500 BC. I'll list some of my references from the HW boxed set, and point out what I think supports my current position as well as where I diverge from canon below. Please keep in mind the following is my personal opinion. My intent is to show you what my thinking was when I developed the Shimmering Lands.
HW DM pg 11 wrote:BC 2500: Gnomes and dwarves enter the Northern Reaches region and settle in its hills and mountains as the continental ice sheets recede.
To me this implies that the dwarves and gnomes were not currently present in the Northern Reaches. Although they could have migrated from elsewhere in the KW, my assumption is that they migrated from Skothar. Even Gaz 6 has numerous examples of kooky high tech gadgetry (See Gaz 6 pg 37 for the Proto-Seppelin, Steam-Powered Dimension-Launcher, and Drill-Nose Mole Digger) which again leads me to make a connection with Blackmoor and to the assumption that the dwarves originated there.
HW DM pg 12 wrote:BC 1800: The dwarvish race on the Known World is slowly, inevitably dying out. The Immortal called Kagyar the Artisan takes all remaining dwarves in the Known World. Half he transplants to the Hollow World, and half he reshapes into a new dwarven race. Now there are no remnants of the original dwarven race on the outer world. Some of the "new dwarves" are returned to the Northern Reaches, where the largest dwarf colonies had been, and eventually become the Modrigswerg clans; others are planted in the Rockhome region. Both groups are given false memories and believe that the Modrigswerg dwarves also originally lived in the Rockhome lands.
This is where I break from canon. Personally I don't think that most of the above holds up to scrutiny, and I'm injecting my own personal preference into dwarven history here.
- I accept that Kagyar takes some original dwarves and places them in the HW, and also that he modifies others creating our current Rockhome dwarves.
- To me modrigswerg suffer (even in 1000 AC) from many of the ailments that I believe would be caused by radiance poisoning. Insanity, deformities, etc... These things don't fit if they are modern dwarves (who should be resistant to such things). Therefor I am ignoring this line "Now there are no remnants of the original dwarven race on the outer world."
- The whole false memories thing is very confusing. If I ever introduced this to any of my players, they would look at me as if I was stark raving mad. There is absolutely 0 potential for adventure ideas with the false memories paradigm, therefore I am ignoring it.
- Having said all of the above however, if you take this quote literally, it would seem to indicate that the entire Mystaran dwarven population in 1800 BC was located in the Northern Reaches/Rockhome area (and nowhere else).
HW DM pg 12 wrote:BC 1800: The dwarves transplanted to the Hollow World, who mostly belong to the Kogolor clans, thrive in their new lands. They have been placed in eastern mountains just north of the great equatorial mountain range, fairly distant from other sentient races; they have occasional contact with the Neathar tribes to the north and west, but are largely left to their own devices.
At the moment I have not dealt with who or what the Kogolor were in the Shimmering Lands. I'm leaning towards the idea that in 2300 BC they weren't yet formed. Since the Kogolor are the dwarves that Kagyar chose to keep in the HW, my first thought is that they must have been worthy (in some shape or form) in his eyes. Therefore these are not fiend/entropy worshipers, nor are they practitioners of forbidden arts (ie radiomancers). It's possible that these clans formed closer to 1800 BC during the intense periods of unrest between the dwarves at that time. These clans would have been followers of Dranwyrf/Denwarf (who at that point would be in his construct body).
HW DM pg 52 wrote:The Kogolor Dwarves are direct (and unmodified) descendants of the original dwarf-race of the outer world. These dwarves ruled numerous mountain ranges in the ancient past, but persistant sickness caused by the Great Rain of Fire and the subsequent rise of the human culture sent them into decline.
At that time, the Immortal named Kagyar the Artisan decided to create a new dwarven race. He thought that something like the dwarves, but more resistant to the diseases caused by Blackmoorian devices, more inclined to live in safe below-ground homes, would have a greater chance of survival in case something like the Blackmoor disaster ever threatened the world again.
So Kagyar took up all the dwarves on the world. He took the healthiest of them and modified them into the modern Rockhome dwarven race, establishing them in the Rockhome mountain ranges. The others he unceremoniously dumped in a mountain range in the Hollow World.
This quote reiterates some of the earlier ones. It specifically mentions Blackmoor devices (another hint to the origin of the dwarves perhaps, and they type of culture they had back then). As a side note, the Blackmoorian threat is very real in the Shimmering Lands. The Gate of Light will be a focus for at least one adventure path (once I get to those), and causes Kagyar no end of concern. Shutting that threat down is part of what triggers dwarven civil war circa 1800 BC.

Again it also makes reference to "all the dwarves in the world". My interpretation of this is twofold - 1) There weren't many dwarves in the world to start with, and they were all located in the area of the Northern Reaches/Rockhome when Kagyar took them. 2) He only took his followers (so the all in the above statement only refers to them), modifying the most hardy, and leaving the rest in the HW. However not all the dwarves at the time worshiped Kagyar. Can you imagine the immortal outrage if Kagyar really did take ALL of the dwarves in the world - even those who worshiped other immortals. This act comes dangerously close to breaking the Prime Directive and I don't think the other immortals would have stood for it (especially since most of them were probably entropics).
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Scaevola » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:34 pm

Chimpman wrote: 1) To me modrigswerg suffer (even in 1000 AC) from many of the ailments that I believe would be caused by radiance poisoning. Insanity, deformities, etc... These things don't fit if they are modern dwarves (who should be resistant to such things). Therefor I am ignoring this line "Now there are no remnants of the original dwarven race on the outer world."
2) The whole false memories thing is very confusing. If I ever introduced this to any of my players, they would look at me as if I was stark raving mad. There is absolutely 0 potential for adventure ideas with the false memories paradigm, therefore I am ignoring it.
3) Having said all of the above however, if you take this quote literally, it would seem to indicate that the entire Mystaran dwarven population in 1800 BC was located in the Northern Reaches/Rockhome area (and nowhere else).
1) Yes, I agree with you. I went along the same lines in writing the first chapter of my Dwarven History and my Dwarven Atlas (this is only in Italian, unfortunately, but I have translated most of the History for the MML. Maybe you could give it a look, it's here: http://pandius.com/dwrf1age.html). Note that my history was written from the point of view of players. In the Italian part of the Atlas I described Modrigswerg as not-reshaped dwarves. They don't have anti magic and use much worse saving throws for poison/death ray and spells. I am more than willing to rewrite and reshape my dwarves work to make it more consistent with your work on the Moadreg.
2) Some false memories might be in order, some might not. I think it could be ok for Kagyar to severe the ties from Skothar or even only to avoid dwarves to remember that they are a breakaway group of the modrigswerg/moadreg and not viceversa!
3) And I agree with that.
Chimpman wrote: At the moment I have not dealt with who or what the Kogolor were in the Shimmering Lands. I'm leaning towards the idea that in 2300 BC they weren't yet formed.[...] It's possible that these clans formed closer to 1800 BC during the intense periods of unrest between the dwarves at that time.
Personally I'd prefer another solution:
the Kogolor dwarves were brought to the Hollow World before 3000 BC, or somewhere between 3000 BC and 2500 BC. They were an "original" dwarven culture that did NOT venture into the whole Blackmoor technology craze, or were taken to the HW because they were going into that direction and the Immortals wanted to save them and/or they were dying out. In this case they might not be directly linked to the Moadreg/Rockhome dwarves, or they could have been absorbed by them. If some Kogolor dwarves are present in Moadreg lands, they could be a minor clan, but I really don't think there would be time for them to evolve between 2500 BC and 1800 BC and be considered an "original" clan. Moreover they don't even worship Kagyar (they worship Fredar, Fredara and Garal) and their language is vastly "different" from the Rockhome language (they even have a different alphabet).
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Chimpman » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:08 pm

Scaevola wrote:Personally I'd prefer another solution:
the Kogolor dwarves were brought to the Hollow World before 3000 BC, or somewhere between 3000 BC and 2500 BC. They were an "original" dwarven culture that did NOT venture into the whole Blackmoor technology craze, or were taken to the HW because they were going into that direction and the Immortals wanted to save them and/or they were dying out. In this case they might not be directly linked to the Moadreg/Rockhome dwarves, or they could have been absorbed by them. If some Kogolor dwarves are present in Moadreg lands, they could be a minor clan, but I really don't think there would be time for them to evolve between 2500 BC and 1800 BC and be considered an "original" clan. Moreover they don't even worship Kagyar (they worship Fredar, Fredara and Garal) and their language is vastly "different" from the Rockhome language (they even have a different alphabet).
The Kogolor give me no end of headaches ;) (it's probably why I've ignored them for so long). I went through my HW materials last weekend and saw some of the same things you mention above. There are 2 major problems that I can see, and you've touched on both of them.

Problem 1: Different language, different alphabet. You know the first thing I did after reading this? I went to look at the rules for generating dwarf names (both in Gaz 6 and in the HW Players Guide). Know what I found? With a few minor differences the rules for name generation are identical for both. It looks like the HW is a cut and paste job of Gaz 6 with just a few additions and subtractions to the list of prefixes and suffixes. Based on name generation alone, I would say this is not a new language (could still possibly be a different alphabet). Based on everything else about the Kogolor (lederhosen, yodeling, etc...) it is seems that the intended language for Kogolor should have been something Germanic in origin.

Problem 2: Immortals. Again, something here doesn't make sense. If Kagyar took all the dwarves and modified half and placed half in the HW, then wouldn't those he placed in the HW still remember him? And if they did, wouldn't the SoP insure that they still worship him (at least in some portion of their population)? Instead they worship Garal (ok - this can actually tie into my dwarven pantheon of the time), Frey and Freyja (which indicates Norse/Antalian influence). Going off of Codex Immortalis dates, Frey and Freyja become immortals in 1660 BC (something that doesn't match up with the HW info) - but I think these dates are fanon and we shouldn't be tied to them. Having said that we do need to determine when Frey and Freyja ascended because the Kogolor have to be placed in the HW sometime after that point.

So there are a couple of solutions that I can see.

Solution 1: The Kogolor move to the HW predates 2500 BC. This is the solution you mention above. In this case the Kogolor dwarves were a distinct culture on the OW, probably in the time of Blackmoor or before and were destroyed by the GRoF. The immortals moved the remnants to the HW to preserve them after that catastrophe. We need to account for Antalian influence here though because it is likely that portions of the dwarven language, and maybe their entire alphabet, were influenced by Antalian language. The question we have to ask here is what is the time frame of Antalian influence on the Outer World? Once we have that range we can place the Kogolor in an appropriate place and era. The problem with this solution is that it changes the time when the Kogolor were placed into the HW, and may also change the immortal(s) who placed them there.
[By the way we are thinking along similar lines, because this was the first solution I came up with as well.]

Solution 2: The Kogolor are an existing clan/house in the Shimmering Lands. This is basically what I outlined above in a previous post, but I want to define what I mean by clan better here. In the Shimmering Lands there are 3 major Clans (Felwig, Karlheig, and Yardrak) however the meaning of "Clan" is different from the Gaz 6 meaning. The SL dwarves really use Clan as a way to represent occupation. Felwig are master craftsmen and golem makers. Karlheig are mystics, philosophers, and handlers of beasts. Yardrak specialize in dealing with and binding planar creatures. I have more explanation planned in a later post. Anyway, common dwarven Clans are more about heritage (although each of the Clans do have their own specialties). This evolving of what it means to be in a dwarven clan may also have occurred around the 1800-1700 BC timeframe. In that sense, the Kogolor can be a dwarven "family line" that are fairly insular and can eventually develop into the Kogolor Clan (and nation).

There are problems with this as well. Why did Kagyar not modify any Kogolor (their language and alphabet are different and unrepresented in Rockhome, so I assume that none of their line made it through)? Why didn't Kagyar leave any "Rockhome" dwarves unmodified, placing them in the HW? If I wanted to simplify things here I might just ignore the whole language and alphabet references from the HW and treat the Kogolor the same as other dwarves in 2500 BC.

Solution 3: The Kogolor dwarves were native to Brun. This is also possible, and not something that I'd thought of before these discussions. I'd have them live in the mountains of Rockhome, while their brethren immigrate into the Northern Reaches and Bridge of Oost regions. Having the Kogolor be in Brun first, might be the reason that the Skotharian dwarves venture here in the first place. Their homeland had just been devastated, and they had distant relatives in Brun whom they could turn to for succor. So far, this option causes the least amount of problems. The Kogolor and the SL gnomes have very similar mindsets. They could have been on Brun for a long time (pre Blackmoor even) and that could account for the different language and alphabet. It could also account for different immortals (my Skotharian dwarves have a very Blackmoor influenced pantheon), and possibly the reason that Kagyar ignores them - he has no followers among them. Perhaps he feels sorry enough for them to drop them off in the HW (thus protecting them from any radiance danger in the area), but not obligated to modify them and include them with his "chosen" people.

I'd have to go back and modify my own timeline to include the Kogolor, but the more I think about this option, the more I think it can be done with very little impact to all of my current work.

[So, yes... I may be flipping my original position about Dwarves on Brun pre 2500 BC]
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Andaire » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:09 pm

Chimpman wrote:Problem 2: Immortals. Again, something here doesn't make sense. If Kagyar took all the dwarves and modified half and placed half in the HW, then wouldn't those he placed in the HW still remember him? And if they did, wouldn't the SoP insure that they still worship him (at least in some portion of their population)? Instead they worship Garal (ok - this can actually tie into my dwarven pantheon of the time), Frey and Freyja (which indicates Norse/Antalian influence). Going off of Codex Immortalis dates, Frey and Freyja become immortals in 1660 BC (something that doesn't match up with the HW info) - but I think these dates are fanon and we shouldn't be tied to them. Having said that we do need to determine when Frey and Freyja ascended because the Kogolor have to be placed in the HW sometime after that point.
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Chimpman » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:24 pm

Andaire wrote:Didn't you say you weren't sure yet where the Antalians would fit in?
I did ;), and this was the reason I didn't want to think about it too much. But Guilio's questions put me on that path, so I figure I might as well tackle the problem. My problem is that I've been spending most of my time thinking about the races and cultures in the KW, and not spending any time considering anything further north than the Northern Reaches/Glantri (besides Urzud of course ;) ) . And I had been ignoring the Kogolor completely (for various reasons). I'm still not sure what the outcome will be though, so just consider this to be a working discussion (and input is welcome!).

If we go with canon, then the Kogolor have Antalian influences (and thus there should be some Antalians nearby). So far I've just been considering them to be "up north", with up north not well defined. If we add Kogolor into the mix, the Antalians need to be better defined.
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Chimpman » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:28 pm

I've moved the Shimmering Lands map post to the Geographical Mapping forum under the Outer World: Shimmering Lands 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex thread. Refer to that thread for discussions about the map.
Last edited by Chimpman on Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Havard » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:40 pm

OMG, that map is fantastic John! :)

Pssst: You have misspelt the name of this board on your map...

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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Chimpman » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:50 pm

Havard wrote:OMG, that map is fantastic John! :)

Pssst: You have misspelt the name of this board on your map...
Lol! I'll have to fix that when I get home tonight... I've been expecting the next Paizo adventure path in the mail for the past few days (supposedly a desert/Egyptian/gnolls adventure - very excited to see it when it comes!) so I must have them on the brain or something.
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Andaire » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:47 pm

Actually that's not the only typo; excellent has two l's, Thorfinn two n's, the general (but not always respected) way of writing years in Mystara would have it as BC 2300, ...
I see I'm not the only one who tends to correct/edit our Mystaran works ;)
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Chimpman » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:02 pm

Andaire wrote:Actually that's not the only typo; excellent has two l's, Thorfinn two n's, the general (but not always respected) way of writing years in Mystara would have it as BC 2300, ...
I see I'm not the only one who tends to correct/edit our Mystaran works ;)
:oops: This will teach me not to upload documents at 2:00 in the morning. It's a good thing we have some experienced editors around :D
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Seer of Yhog » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:21 pm

Wow - great map! I'll have to study this in more detail!
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - The Shimmering Lands

Post by Andaire » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:58 pm

Chimpman wrote: :oops: This will teach me not to upload documents at 2:00 in the morning. It's a good thing we have some experienced editors around :D
Ah, well, don't worry about it, we'd rather have your maps - we'll worry about spellchecking later. Don't go to bed before you upload your map :)
PS: even editors make mistakes. I certainly edit my own writings along with the rest - and find many mistakes in them too :o
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Post by Scaevola » Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:46 pm

Andaire wrote:Actually that's not the only typo; excellent has two l's, Thorfinn two n's, the general (but not always respected) way of writing years in Mystara would have it as BC 2300, ...
I guess this is a good moment to point out that my name is written GIULIO and not GUILIO... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

but don't worry, it seems to be an impossible name to remember for everyone who's not italian. I live in Norway currently and have given up any hope for people (norwegians and others) at my institute to learn how to write/pronounce it. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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