Mystara 2300 BC - Rakasta

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Mystara 2300 BC - Rakasta

Post by Scaevola » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:50 pm

This topic is specifically aimed at two things: first, the Rakasta and where they were at the time (and that's a question I want to ask Giampaolo and Simone, since I consider the former the Authority on All Things Rakasta and the latter the Autorithy on All Migrations and Migration-Related Maps).

Secondarily, I just wanted to remind and reintroduce my concept behind the nature of Makai as a white-human population conquered at some point in their history by Rakastas speaking Austronesian languages.

In my language tree, the Rakastas were divided in two main group, one of which gave origin to the M-Austronesian language family (comprehending some Skotharian/Sherkasta Rakastas like the Harimau-Belang, IIRC, Giampaolo help me), the other in Davania which gave birth to the M-Nilo-Saharian languages (Simbasta etc).

You can check an old article of mine on the Vaults regarding the issue: http://pandius.com/romm_eth.html
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - Rakasta

Post by Chimpman » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:47 pm

This is a great topic! Just looking at the BC 3000 - BC 2000 map by LoZompitore and Simone Neri (taken from the article History and Evolution of Rakastas by Simone), we might be able to make some broad assumptions as to what Rakasta were doing in Brun around 2300 BC.

There are Mountain Rakasta, Lynxmen, and Jakar on the outskirts of the KW at this time, and Pardasta in Ochalea. I've been thinking that there would be several Jakar tribes integrated in with the Azcan society that fled beneath the Great Plateau. These would of course be very near the Makai, but I don't think work very well with the idea that Makai got their "Polynesian" culture from Rakasta.

However, perhaps (as you mention in you above article) there is some relationship between the Makai and the Pardasta currently living on Ochalea. In addition I'm wondering if the ancestors of the Ethengarians are involved in some way as well. I've always assumed that the Ethengarians arrived on their steppes via the north, but perhaps instead they arrived by a southern route. Elves were migrating north from Vulcania at the time - possibly pushing natives out of their ancestral homes as they moved. What if the Ethengarians and Pardasta are just such a people? Part of the original Ochalean (and surrounding islands) inhabitants that were driven off by the elves. They could move up to the southern Brun coast (where they encounter the Makai) and then into Darokin and Ethengar (where they come into contact with the emerging humanoids of the time).

I'm not sure this history makes perfect sense - you'll have to forgive if there are some holes in my logic since I am writing this without access to any of my source materials.
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Post by Scaevola » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:52 am

Actually the idea of Austronesian Rakasta comes from the fact that we have Rakastas that later evolve into Myoshimans, and we know that Myoshimans are Japanese.

The Japanese language's origin is a bit uncertain, but for Mystaran purposes we can at least assume that it is the result of a mix (of a Uralo-Altaic and Austronesian languages), whose culture has been influenced by Chinese.

Austronesian Pardasta can arrive in the Ierendi region, conquer the Pre-Makai Neathar, or live beside them and conquer them only culturally; then they move on westwards and absorb Uralo-Altaic elements from contacts with some tribe related to the Midlands humans. The Chinese element of Myoshiman Rakastas comes from Pachydermions (see Matera).

About Ethengarians: Turk-Mongol language is unrelated to Austronesian language. I would opt for Ethengarians to have their language coming from a common Turk-Mongol group, originated from somewhere common also to the ancestors of M-Huleans.

Here it's late (2 AM), I hope this makes sense
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - Rakasta

Post by agathokles » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:37 am

Scaevola wrote: In my language tree, the Rakastas were divided in two main group, one of which gave origin to the M-Austronesian language family (comprehending some Skotharian/Sherkasta Rakastas like the Harimau-Belang, IIRC, Giampaolo help me), the other in Davania which gave birth to the M-Nilo-Saharian languages (Simbasta etc).
Yes, most Skotharian Rakasta, including the Sherkasta and Cloud Pardasta, as well to Sherkasta nations of Myoshima (Surabayang), belong to the first group, while Simbasta and other Davanian Rakasta (Msongo Fast Runners, for example), belong to the latter.
This is based on the few indications given in the Dragon Magazine article (i.e., the names of each breed in their own language).
The linguistic groups mentioned are not covered by other species (except for the presence of the Makai, which, being descended from Neathar, are likely to have acquired their current language from an external source), so they can be assumed to be original Rakasta creations, related to the two primary ancestor breeds (Cave Rakasta and Rakastodon Fatalis).

Note that many modern Rakasta speak other languages not related to the M-Austronesian and M-Nilo-Saharian group, including M-Indoeuropean (Bellayne), M-Indi (Rajahstan) and M-Mesoamerican (Arm of the Immortal Rakasta, Ocelotl), which were likely passed on by humans in the area.

The M-Japanese language is also exclusive of the Rakasta, but is limited to the Yazak Steppes and the Empire of Myoshima. Back when we designed the ethnography stuff, we chose to play on the (tenuous to a varying degree) links between Japanese and the Altaic and Austronesian families.

As to the distribution of Rakasta on Mystara at 2300 BC, I just assumed that at the time of the GRoF the Rakasta breeds were mostly developed (e.g., the Tagh/White Sherkasta were already a separate ethnic group within the Sherkasta breed, and already lived in the mountains of Skothar).
The fall of Plaktur happens around 1700 BC in my Myoshiman timeline. Plaktur is the origin of the M-Japonese Rakasta culture, before the M-Chinese influence.

Zendrolion wrote a timeline of the Rakasta that goes back to 150,000 BC. There, the migrations are almost complete before the GRoF. There's also a map of the Rakasta breeds circa 2100-1700 BC in the same article, which may be of use. Note that according to Zendrolion, Plaktur is founded around 2100 BC.

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Post by Zendrolion » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:35 pm

Scaevola wrote:Secondarily, I just wanted to remind and reintroduce my concept behind the nature of Makai as a white-human population conquered at some point in their history by Rakastas speaking Austronesian languages.
That was my idea also, after Giampaolo pointed out on the Italian MMB that the only hope to rationally derive an Austronesian language family in Mystaran and link that with the Makai language rested in a contact between the latter and some branch of the Rakastas.

About Rakasta-inhabited regions as per BC 2300, I did this map for my article of Rakastas at the Vaults.
Scaevola wrote:The Japanese language's origin is a bit uncertain, but for Mystaran purposes we can at least assume that it is the result of a mix (of a Uralo-Altaic and Austronesian languages), whose culture has been influenced by Chinese.
In fact, that'd not be a problem at all. Myoshiman Rakastas (well, their "core" at least) come from the destroyed civilizationof Plaktur in the Yazak Steppes area; so, we can imagine them as a people speaking an Austronesian-descended language which is well in contact with Uralo-Altaic speaking human peoples (like the ancestors of the Huleans), inhabiting south-central Brun.
Austronesian Pardasta can arrive in the Ierendi region, conquer the Pre-Makai Neathar, or live beside them and conquer them only culturally; then they move on westwards and absorb Uralo-Altaic elements from contacts with some tribe related to the Midlands humans. The Chinese element of Myoshiman Rakastas comes from Pachydermions (see Matera).
In my migration maps (which at the moment can be found only on the Italian MMB), I had a Neathar-descended branch, the Maharians, moving to the Serpent Peninsula before the Great Rain of Fire, then to nearby northern Davania around the time of the cataclysm. They migrated north from one islet to another following the changement of the climatic patterns after BC 3000, until some of them settled the Ierendi islands.
As around BC 3000 we have various Rakasta breeds stationed in northern Davania, I think it could be better to have the Makai conquered and influenced by one of them while they were still in the southern continent, that is before about BC 1900.
IMO this solution is an easier way to handle the relationship between Rakastas and Makai, as nowadays (AC 1000) we don't have Rakastas in the southern Known World: thus, if we want to put some Rakasta breed in the Ierendi islands to conquer and influence the Makai, then we'll have to devise another migration to move them from the archipelago.

About which Rakasta breed could have affected the Makai culture and language, I think we have many candidates: Pardastas seem the most obvious candidates to me.

Lastly, about the Pachydermions: don't they have a Nepalese-inspired culture (or something like that)? If so, why the Rakasta breeds belonging to the Sherkasta branch (like the Tagh, Harimau-Belang, etc.) could have not developed the Chinese traits of their culture on their own? After all, the only other "Chinesesque" culture we have on Mystara is the Ochalean one - and we know that one isn't directly related to any other Mystaran culture, being an alien (i.e. Alphatian-descended) one.
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Re: Re:

Post by agathokles » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:22 pm

Zendrolion wrote: Lastly, about the Pachydermions: don't they have a Nepalese-inspired culture (or something like that)? If so, why the Rakasta breeds belonging to the Sherkasta branch (like the Tagh, Harimau-Belang, etc.) could have not developed the Chinese traits of their culture on their own? After all, the only other "Chinesesque" culture we have on Mystara is the Ochalean one - and we know that one isn't directly related to any other Mystaran culture, being an alien (i.e. Alphatian-descended) one.
The main issue is why we have two unrelated M-Chinese (or heavily M-Chinese-influenced) cultures? Of course, that would not be the sole case in Mystara (the Laterran cultures are the most obvious case), but I'd still be happier if there could be a clear connection between the two.

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Post by Scaevola » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:22 pm

Ok, so I think we can skip Pardasta and Makai in a dealing of the Taymora and Known World areas for BC 2300.

I'd definitely settle for a Pachydermion origin for Chinese elements in Ochalea and Myoshima - moreover, it is all there already in Giampaolo's Ochalean and Myoshiman GAZs.

The so-called "nepalese" Pachydermions always seemed to me more "tibetan" than "nepalese", but I could remember wrong. At the moment I don't remember if there was ever any mention of that anywhere, maybe it's just me ret-conning at the time and now remembering only this ret-conning...
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Post by Havard » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:42 pm

Scaevola wrote: I'd definitely settle for a Pachydermion origin for Chinese elements in Ochalea and Myoshima - moreover, it is all there already in Giampaolo's Ochalean and Myoshiman GAZs.

The so-called "nepalese" Pachydermions always seemed to me more "tibetan" than "nepalese", but I could remember wrong. At the moment I don't remember if there was ever any mention of that anywhere, maybe it's just me ret-conning at the time and now remembering only this ret-conning...
It makes alot of sense to me to have the origins of MChinese culture on Mystara predate the Alphatian Ochaleans. The theory of the Pachydermions as founders of this culture on Mystara had escaped me, but it would help solve alot of problems! :)

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Post by Cthulhudrew » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:25 pm

Scaevola wrote:The so-called "nepalese" Pachydermions always seemed to me more "tibetan" than "nepalese", but I could remember wrong. At the moment I don't remember if there was ever any mention of that anywhere, maybe it's just me ret-conning at the time and now remembering only this ret-conning...
I envisioned the Pachydermions as a sort of Tibetan/Myanmar hodgepodge when I first introduced the concept in the Patera Project lo these many moons ago.

Of course, that raises the issue of two Tibets as well (since there is also an M-Tibet by way of Lhamsa in the Glantrian Alps). I don't think it's a big issue, though. (In any event, Lhamsa as I have it traces its origins back to Sind. I really need to write that stuff up one of these days.)
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Post by Scaevola » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:24 am

From my egoistical and limited point of view, the most important aspect is linguistic. Tibetan is related to the biggest, official Chinese languages, they make up the so-called Sino-Tibetan linguistic family. If we simply say that the Pachydermions are those that created that language family, that solves most of the Chinese issues. Agathokles' Ochalea and Myoshima, if I recall correctly, presents also how. Or maybe we just discussed it somewhere and it didn't go into the GP-GAZs?

Anyway, I envision the language situation as this: first I use the multi-origin theory for spoken language, and then I assign to each of the following groups a RW-family:

1.Rakastas (Skotharian, Sherkasta/Pardasta)--> Austronesian language family

2.Rakastas (Davanian) ---> Nilo-Saharian language family

3.Pachydermions ---> Sino-Tibetan language family

4.Neathar ---> Nostratic macro-family (in RW relations its existance is hypothetical)
-------------------------------------------> 4.1.Afroasiatic family (Nithian, Thotian, Alasiyan, GP's "Phoenician" version of Taymora)
-------------------------------------------> 4.2.Indoeuropean family (Neathar speaking Neathars)
-------------------------------------------> 4.3.Uralo-Altaic macrofamily (Neathar-speaking Oltecs = "Northern Oltec Men" in GP/Atila's Oltec Timeline) (eg Finnish, Laplander, Turk=Hulean, Mongol=Ethengarian)

5.Oltecs ---> Amerindian languages (Oltec speaking Oltecs = "Oltecindians" in GP/Atila's Oltec Timeline)

6.Tanagoro ---> Nilo-Kordafanian languages (eg Bantu)
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - Rakasta

Post by agathokles » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:43 pm

AFAIR, I never explicitly covered the linguistic issue in the two gazetteers -- I discussed the formation of the Ochalean and Myoshiman culture in more general terms. Of course, the Pachydermions have a major influence on the Myoshiman culture, but not on the Ochalean culture -- AFAIK, there are no Pachydermions in Ochalea.

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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - Rakasta

Post by Havard » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:04 pm

agathokles wrote:AFAIR, I never explicitly covered the linguistic issue in the two gazetteers -- I discussed the formation of the Ochalean and Myoshiman culture in more general terms. Of course, the Pachydermions have a major influence on the Myoshiman culture, but not on the Ochalean culture -- AFAIK, there are no Pachydermions in Ochalea.
How about a Pre-Alphatian civilization on Ochalea which could have had influence on the later Alphatian-Ochaleans? The Ogre Magi maybe?

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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - Rakasta

Post by Scaevola » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:19 pm

agathokles wrote:Of course, the Pachydermions have a major influence on the Myoshiman culture, but not on the Ochalean culture -- AFAIK, there are no Pachydermions in Ochalea.
So what would your suggestion be? Ogre-magi like Haavard says? Or consider Ochaleans like Laterrans, and thus we will just allow them to have two clone-cultures on Mystara without bothering? Is there a way Pachydermions can have an impact on Ochalea? Or some Pachydermion-influenced culture?
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Re: Mystara 2300 BC - Rakasta

Post by agathokles » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:14 pm

Scaevola wrote:
agathokles wrote:Of course, the Pachydermions have a major influence on the Myoshiman culture, but not on the Ochalean culture -- AFAIK, there are no Pachydermions in Ochalea.
So what would your suggestion be? Ogre-magi like Haavard says? Or consider Ochaleans like Laterrans, and thus we will just allow them to have two clone-cultures on Mystara without bothering? Is there a way Pachydermions can have an impact on Ochalea? Or some Pachydermion-influenced culture?
I see two main options:
  • The Rakasta of Ochalea were influenced by earlier Pachydermion inhabitants of the region, then they trasmitted part of this M-Chinese culture to the Lupins and Humans of Ochalea as well as to the Rakasta of Myoshima.
  • Both the inhabitants of Ochalea and the Pachydermions have been influenced by the same extraplanar M-Sino-Tibetan species (Foo Dogs, for example, or other Oriental spirits/fey/etc.).
Both still leave open the problem of the relation between Hobgobland/Yellow Orcland and the M-Chinese cultures (see the names of the goblinoid Immortals, for the Oriental goblinoids, which seem definitely more M-Chinese than M-Mongol).

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