[Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Rebuilding the world in the wake of the Great Rain of Fire.

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[Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Chimpman »

Ok, we've had plenty of discussions about Brun and some about Skothar, but I realized that I know almost nothing about Davania during this time period.

So, other than the elves in Vulcania, what races/cultures/nations are on the continent of Davania during the BC 3000 to BC 2000 time period?

- Elves in Vulcania
- Lhomarrians in the Lost Valley (hunter-gatherers)?
- Rakasta (one or more breeds)?
- Remnants of the Carnifex (in the Centre of Brasol)?
- The Khosam city states (see Tokham)
- several tribes/nations of lizardfolk and siss'thik
- Halflings in the Platea region (with map).
- Toadlings of Ahr-Rhbbyk
- The Realm of Gildesh/Golden Realm/Golden Empire (the shedu, and eventual patron of the Enduk race)
- goblins of Kresh
- Kwythellar (with map)
Last edited by Chimpman on Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:30 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Seer of Yhog »

Holy crud! I completely forgot I'd written about that! On the one hand, it's gratifying that I seem to have covered more angles than I thought; on the other hand, it's daunting that I seem to have covered more angles than I thought.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Seer of Yhog wrote:Holy crud! I completely forgot I'd written about that! On the one hand, it's gratifying that I seem to have covered more angles than I thought; on the other hand, it's daunting that I seem to have covered more angles than I thought.
I'm sure there's more out there still that I haven't found yet. Actually I can see the Lost Valley region becoming an analogue of the Lost World/Land of the Lost TV series with the Lhomarrians taking the place of primitive man, and the Carnifex remnants (trogs and lizardmen mostly I suppose) taking the place of the Sleestack.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Havard »

IMC, I use Mystaros' Blackmoor Epic as a basis. While the final remnants of the Serpentine Empire would have been destroyed at this time, you would still have remaining lizardman/Trog/Naga cultures along as remnants of the Golden Empire (Metallic Dragons, Enduks) on Davania.

Maybe some of Steven Wilson's Arica material can be used as well (Zebrataurs etc...)

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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Seer of Yhog »

Makes sense to me. The humans would be living in and around the ruins of their former greatness ("Who built these great statues? The old ones, my child, who came over the sea before the Rain of Fire.") - without necessarily knowing that it was their own ancestors who built it. The seeds for eventual cultural rebrith are there, possibly aided by the kopru once they move down there.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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I just thought I'd update this thread by posting links to some of the new Davania threads being started. They should provide us with ample idea opportunities for filling in the blank spaces in this era.

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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Ok, I was digging around some of GG's old files while looking at the Klath-T'zarth thread and stumbled on this:
Tokham article wrote:The survivors of the Great Rain of Fire reached the Adakkian Sound around 2000 BC - some settled the north coast, others the south. Those in the north soon came against indigenous humanoids and lizard men; but the land was large and seemingly empty. The Khosam spread widely, and soon great distances and intense competition had fragmented them. Before long, a city-state was just as likely to ally with humanoids against a neighbouring city as help it. Tribal loyalties arose, and although they recognised common heritage, personal interest dominated. By the time the Nithians discovered the region, Khosam lands in northern Adakkia were a patchwork of competing city-states and petty empires stretching from the Adakkian Mounts to the source of the sound. Those who migrated south were less fortunate - they were exterminated by jungle orcs roughly 300 years after their arrival.
There are a few tidbits we can tease out of this paragraph. First of all it's dated BC 2000 which is around the timeframe that we want to scrutinize. The events here happen about 300 years after the BC 2300 era, but we can still infer a few things:

1) The Khosam fled the northern coasts of Davania after the GRoF in BC 3000 and made their way to the Adakkian Sound by BC 2000.

2) North of the sound are lizardfolk. Could these be the same lizardfolk that will eventually conquer/establish Klath T'zarth? If so they are separated by several thousand years of time.

3) South of the Sound there are jungle orcs. This statement causes some difficulties since that would mean that beastmen from Urzud (circa BC 3000 to BC 2400) would have needed to migrate from the north of Brun all the way to the Sound by BC 1700 (when they wipe out the southern Khosam). Not impossible actually, but we'd have to come up with some back story for these guys. -Or- they're not really "orcs" descended from beastmen, but a different breed entirely. [Hmmm... it's tight, but could these orcs have fled Urzud after/during the Steel Wars when the Blue Knife was supposedly removed from the city? It's a thought, but I have to go back and see if the times match up.
EDIT: another thought, could these guys be in some way descended from or related to the Kara-Kara?]

And then we have this:
Klath-T'zarth wrote:This unusual town was founded around AC 300 by an expedition of Adakkian Carnifex and their Troglodyte servants, at the confluence of what they called the Shakkor and Y'hgg rivers, and upon the ruins of the Varellyan city of Priallus. They named it Abb-H'zoth. By AC 400, the town was rapidly growing, and the Carnifex rulers began making plans to expand their holdings and drive out those of other races. They did not get far, however, before a horde of lizard men, who had been wandering for centuries after the destruction of their homeland to the southwest, decided to move in and take control.
4) So we know that even up until AC 400 there are carnifex still roaming around in Davania. They would have had some established base of power in BC 2300.

Thoughts?
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Chimpman wrote:There are a few tidbits we can tease out of this paragraph. First of all it's dated BC 2000 which is around the timeframe that we want to scrutinize. The events here happen about 300 years after the BC 2300 era, but we can still infer a few things:

1) The Khosam fled the northern coasts of Davania after the GRoF in BC 3000 and made their way to the Adakkian Sound by BC 2000.
Makes sense to me. There were probably periods where they settled for several generations before moving on – similar to the Halfling migration discussed in the Platea thread. But northern Davania is a pretty big landmass, and no doubt it was full of other people moving elsewhere, too.
Chimpman wrote:2) North of the sound are lizardfolk. Could these be the same lizardfolk that will eventually conquer/establish Klath T'zarth? If so they are separated by several thousand years of time.
Good question. There were probably several tribes or groupings in the area, all of whom were descended from the lizard men who were there at the time of Lhomarr (which reminds me, I really really need to find and scan that map). I see these guys as a separate branch from the Mogreth lizard men, as I know we discussed in an earlier thread. But I think it’s possible that they could have been the ancestors of the current inhabitants of Klath-T’zarth, even though the ones who took the city came from the southwest.

The Adakkian lizard men (probably related to the ones who live in the neighbouring Amalur Lowlands, per the PWAs – damn, another legacy of Y’hog) were probably hunter-gatherers and organised on a tribal level. The Khosam, being a bit more civilised and having better weapons, would have driven them south and east, but enough of them would have survived on the coasts and swamps (which the Khosam wouldn’t have wanted) to let them remain a presence in the region. The noids were probably driven to the hills, mountains, and deepest forests. So, the next few centuries were spent licking wounds, while the humans spread across the fertile grasslands, established cities, and fragmented.

Some of the non-humans, eager to get some of their own back, took a few pages from the humans and became a little more organised. There were probably a couple of noid city-states on the marginal grasslands, and the lizard men would have established a few fortified villages on the coasts. Because the humans were so fragmented, they were never able to wipe their rivals out entirely. I could see this state of affairs lasting for a while, probably starting around BC 1600-1500.

The following centuries would have seen some attempts at consolidation, as one or more city-states allied with the noids or lizard men against a rival. So, by the time the Nithians arrive in 1000 BC there were probably around a dozen or so strong city-states, with a couple of would-be empires (comprising 3-4 cities each). At the same time, the humans probably would have made some advances against the other races.

At some point, however, Nithian influence tips the delicate balance (intentionally or not). So within a generation the plains are a battlefield and the situation continues, on and off, until BC 400. Probably around 20-30% of the pre-encounter population remains once the dust settles. The noids and lizard men would have tried to take advantage of the situation (why not?), and they may even have made some headway, but I think the diseases brought by the Nithians might have done their work here, too. So, if the Klath-T’zarth lizard men are descended from this group, then they would have fled across the Sound (and hopefully away from the disease). Some would have survived, and tried to rebuild, but pressures would have forced them to move east, to a strange city in the swamp….

Now we get to answer the next one….
Chimpman wrote:3) South of the Sound there are jungle orcs. This statement causes some difficulties since that would mean that beastmen from Urzud (circa BC 3000 to BC 2400) would have needed to migrate from the north of Brun all the way to the Sound by BC 1700 (when they wipe out the southern Khosam). Not impossible actually, but we'd have to come up with some back story for these guys
Hmmm…no ideas right now.
Chimpman wrote:EDIT: another thought, could these guys be in some way descended from or related to the Kara-Kara?]
This might be the best solution – I don’t think we ever worked out when the kara-kara diverged from other humanoids. It could have happened far enough back for them to be established in the tropics by the time the GroF happened.

Chimpman wrote:4) So we know that even up until AC 400 there are carnifex still roaming around in Davania. They would have had some established base of power in BC 2300.
I see some possibilities:

1. Orzhekh, the undetailled realm that was home to Hrugesh-K’ha, was in western Brun, but it may have had offshoots after it was wiped out (being a Carnifex wasn’t a great idea after that Y’hog business).

2. The early Mogreth work states that the first realm was founded by Carnies after their own realm (which was explicitly not Orzhekh) fell. If some ended up in the far north, others could have gone south.

Regardless of the source, the Carnies would have had 1001 reasons to lay low while the humans and other races took over the world, and probably only came out of the closet after the GroF (while those pesky Immortals were busy preserving cultures, as per the HW boxed set). It's likely centre of power would have been in the middle of the continent, possibly in Brasol.

[EDIT: Centre of Brasol - hmmm....]
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Seer of Yhog wrote:
Chimpman wrote:4) So we know that even up until AC 400 there are carnifex still roaming around in Davania. They would have had some established base of power in BC 2300.
I see some possibilities:

1. Orzhekh, the undetailled realm that was home to Hrugesh-K’ha, was in western Brun, but it may have had offshoots after it was wiped out (being a Carnifex wasn’t a great idea after that Y’hog business).

2. The early Mogreth work states that the first realm was founded by Carnies after their own realm (which was explicitly not Orzhekh) fell. If some ended up in the far north, others could have gone south.

Regardless of the source, the Carnies would have had 1001 reasons to lay low while the humans and other races took over the world, and probably only came out of the closet after the GroF (while those pesky Immortals were busy preserving cultures, as per the HW boxed set). It's likely centre of power would have been in the middle of the continent, possibly in Brasol.
Of the two, I like the second option best, simply because it limits the number of carnifex migrations that would have had to happen - making the carnifex on Davania in BC 2300 descendants of other Davanian carnifex. It does mean however, that they might have some knowledge of a "secret colony to the north." We might be able to play with that a bit, but I get the feeling that Mogreth works best with the (living) carnifex removed.

I also like the idea of a "secret" nation/colony of carnifex hidden somewhere in central Davania. At 700 years after the GRoF, I think they'd have to lay low and keep a low profile to remain beneath immortal notice, although in the preceding years they could have acted more openly and would have established contacts throughout Davania. Their going back into seclusion could be the basis for quite a few Davanian rumors and myths, but it wouldn't mean that they were out of the game... only that they were pulling very thin strings so as not to be seen directly.

Here's a question I never thought about before, but as with most BC 2300 nations, we always ask "How did they deal with the GRoF?" So how did the carnifex handle the initial disaster, and did they have to deal with any of the after effects?
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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IMC, I had the Serpentine Empire and its remnants (Lizardmen, Naga, Yuan-Ti) living on Davania, as well as the Golden Empire (Metallic Dragons, Enduks) living in the Brasol region during the Blackmoor Era. I'd imagine some of those civilizations could have survived through the Great Rain of Fire.

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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Havard wrote:IMC, I had the Serpentine Empire and its remnants (Lizardmen, Naga, Yuan-Ti) living on Davania, as well as the Golden Empire (Metallic Dragons, Enduks) living in the Brasol region during the Blackmoor Era. I'd imagine some of those civilizations could have survived through the Great Rain of Fire.
Lizardmen, naga, and Yuan-ti are all definitely candidates for being carnifex servitors IMO, so I think they could all have a place somewhere on Davania. Based on some earlier conversations I might want to replace Yuan-Ti with siss'thik (or at least use the two interchangeably). It's been quite a while since I've read JM's works, so I don't know how compatible they would be with what we have so far. Seer, what is your take on the compatibility of Mishler's Davanian timeline with your own?

Enduk (I think - based on the SC timeline I have in front of me) weren't created until BC 2300 when Ixion rewards Gildesh for a "great service" with their creation. Exactly what Gildesh was and where it came from I'm less certain about. That might be something interesting that we can explore.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Zendrolion »

Chimpman wrote:Lizardmen, naga, and Yuan-ti are all definitely candidates for being carnifex servitors IMO, so I think they could all have a place somewhere on Davania.
I agree. Besides, time ago we had talk on the Italian MMB in which Marco Dalmonte suggested the creation of the Nagas (alongside some other evil reptilian creatures or abominations, like wyverns and chimeras) may be connected with the history of Immortal Idris.
Chimpman wrote:Enduk (I think - based on the SC timeline I have in front of me) weren't created until BC 2300 when Ixion rewards Gildesh for a "great service" with their creation. Exactly what Gildesh was and where it came from I'm less certain about. That might be something interesting that we can explore.
Gildesh was a shedu (a winged, human-headed bull) servant of Ixion. I suppose he came from some Outer Plane.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Zendrolion wrote:
Chimpman wrote:Enduk (I think - based on the SC timeline I have in front of me) weren't created until BC 2300 when Ixion rewards Gildesh for a "great service" with their creation. Exactly what Gildesh was and where it came from I'm less certain about. That might be something interesting that we can explore.
Gildesh was a shedu (a winged, human-headed bull) servant of Ixion. I suppose he came from some Outer Plane.
Thanks Zen! I had that in my mind but couldn't remember if I had actually read that somewhere. So maybe Havard's "Blackmoorian era Enduks" are actually shedu - possibly all directly related to Gildesh. It's only after Gildesh' great service to Ixion that the immortal actually creates the bull-headed Enduks. What kind of "great service" might Gildesh have performed?
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Chimpman wrote:Thanks Zen! I had that in my mind but couldn't remember if I had actually read that somewhere. So maybe Havard's "Blackmoorian era Enduks" are actually shedu - possibly all directly related to Gildesh. It's only after Gildesh' great service to Ixion that the immortal actually creates the bull-headed Enduks. What kind of "great service" might Gildesh have performed?
That would work!
Not sure about the serice. Maybe something related to the origin of the Red Curse?

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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Havard wrote:
Chimpman wrote:Thanks Zen! I had that in my mind but couldn't remember if I had actually read that somewhere. So maybe Havard's "Blackmoorian era Enduks" are actually shedu - possibly all directly related to Gildesh. It's only after Gildesh' great service to Ixion that the immortal actually creates the bull-headed Enduks. What kind of "great service" might Gildesh have performed?
That would work!
Not sure about the serice. Maybe something related to the origin of the Red Curse?
Hmmm... sticking with one of the themes of BC 2300 (surviving the GRoF) perhaps Gildesh was instrumental in providing protection from the Great Rain of Fire and its aftereffects (radiance poisoning) in some way. Who was he protecting though? Since Ixion rewards him, I think it's safe to assume that Gildesh is protecting some of Ixion's flock. Perhaps the Realm of Gildesh is a safe haven between BC 3000 and BC 2300 for those on Davania who wish to be protected during these dark ages (and who are willing to worship Ixion in return for this protection).

If that's the case, The Realm of Gildesh could be quite a cosmopolitan center of civilization on Davania - perhaps even a logical starting point for heroes to hail from. Gildesh (perhaps semi-infused with immortal powers) could use his own energies to protect the beings in his realm from the Wasting. He would be confined to remain within the boundaries of his realm in order to keep providing protection, so that might be seen as quite a sacrifice on his part. Of course once the threat of radiance poisoning is over, and the world has stabilized a bit, Gildesh would be free to go on his way (and be rewarded by Ixion for his years of service).

This could also give us a nice mini-setting to play with in BC 2300. Once Gildesh's term of protection is up, he would be free to leave the city and pursue his own agendas (he would have the newly created Enduks to care for now). Those folks left behind in his realm would have to start fending for themselves - perhaps after centuries of incurring jealousy and resentment in many of their neighbors (who wouldn't submit to Ixion's worship and thus were adversely affected by the Wasting). With angry mobs all around them, keeping the Realm of Gildesh intact in BC 2300 might be a full time job (and one that is ultimately doomed to fail...).
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Seer of Yhog »

I like this idea, and with the Ixion (via Gildesh) protection angle, it really does become the Golden Empire - perhaps the Golden Realm?
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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I am also liking this development!

The Realm of Gildesh really helps bridge some of the older fan created ideas, the Red Steel material and the BC2300 stuff... Sweet :)

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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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A random thought, to generate potential strife in the Golden Empire/Realm after Gildesh leaves...

When the GRoF struck, and Gildesh was sent down as a protector for the faithful, Ixion (through His priests) decreed that anyone who desired HIs protection in the times to come would be allowed to do so, provided they converted. And so, the faithful in northern Davania (and parts of southern Brun) migrated en masse to the Guarded Realm, which was kept fertile when the surrounding lands were blasted by the aftereffects of the disaster, and enjoyed magical sunlight when everything around it didn't (mild nuclear winter). This might be the origin of the Golden Empire/Realm name, because during that period there literally would have been a massive shaft of golden light raining down on the sanctuary.

But there were some who refused to abandon their faiths, as stated above, partly out of pride, but also because their Immortals said They would offer protection, too. But They weren't Hierarchs, generally, and so they lacked the power to create guardians and sancutaries on the same scale as Ixion could (though they probably helped as much as they could, and wanted). So the Dark Times came, and Ixion's faithful enjoyed a safe existence, while those outside starved or grew sick, or fought over diminishing resources.

Some abandoned their faiths and converted, and gained admission. While many were sincere, others were not but were able to hide their motives well enough from even magical detection (possibly with the aid of their own Immortal patrons, if said patron had an agenda :twisted:). While the newcomers were grateful, the natives looked down on them, and many questioned the sincerity of their conversions. Newcomers were forced to live on the outskirts of the Realm, to the City, and were denied entry to certain places deemed very important by the priests. At first this was because the natives (quite reasonably) feared that the newcomers might bring disease - or the Wasting - with them. But the initial reasons were forgotten over time, though the practice was maintained.

By the time Gildesh leaves, the two-tiered nature of the Realm's society (the Faithful vs. the Newcomers) is well entrenched. Progressive elements, wanting to preserve the Realm, urge the rulers to end the practice, but the powerful traditionalists declare that this practice is what allowed the Realm to endure as long as it had. In the meantime, descendants of the Newcomers, while still loyal, are embittered, and some are listening to poisonous talk in the Fringe Towns, of the need to take control...

...but there are those outside the Realm who are listening, too.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Chimpman »

Oooh... I really like how this is shaping up. So where might the Golden Realm have been located? I'm thinking somewhere in Izondia, possibly near Final Bay, or along the Izondian Wall, or possibly even in that oasis in the Izondian Desert. What do you folks think? Where would it be placed, and how large would it be?
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Very cool Geoff!

Chimpman, here's a map that might be useful to you:
http://blackmoor.mystara.us/img/precataclysmic04.jpg

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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Havard wrote:Chimpman, here's a map that might be useful to you:
http://blackmoor.mystara.us/img/precataclysmic04.jpg
Cool. That's about the general location I was thinking of... though I don't know that I'd make it cover that large an area in BC 2300 (although it would probably been larger during the Blackmoor era). It's very likely that after the GRoF, the "Enduk Free States" would have to collapse so as to fall under the umbrella of Gildesh' protection.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Chimpman wrote:Seer, what is your take on the compatibility of Mishler's Davanian timeline with your own?
I think a lot of it is compatible, since it takes place (most of it) after my ancient work on the Y'hog timeline - creating a nice sandwich. I agree we may need to change the yuan-ti to sis'thik or something similar, though.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Seer of Yhog »

Chimpman wrote:Oooh... I really like how this is shaping up. So where might the Golden Realm have been located? I'm thinking somewhere in Izondia, possibly near Final Bay, or along the Izondian Wall, or possibly even in that oasis in the Izondian Desert. What do you folks think? Where would it be placed, and how large would it be?
Definitely Izonda, to make it consistent with the Mishler Mythos, but if you look at this map, you'll see that oasis would be perfect. ;)
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Chimpman wrote:
Havard wrote:Chimpman, here's a map that might be useful to you:
http://blackmoor.mystara.us/img/precataclysmic04.jpg
Cool. That's about the general location I was thinking of... though I don't know that I'd make it cover that large an area in BC 2300 (although it would probably been larger during the Blackmoor era). It's very likely that after the GRoF, the "Enduk Free States" would have to collapse so as to fall under the umbrella of Gildesh' protection.
Yeah, the map I posted was all Blackmoor Era. What happened after the GRoF is anyone's guess, but as usual there might be seeds to what would come later. Having the Free States under Gildesh would make sense.

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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Chimpman »

So this little corner of Davania seems to be shaping up nicely. We have:
1) the Khosam coming into the area somewhere between the northern coast and the Sound.
2) tribes of "humanoids" and lizardmen inhabiting the area north of the Sound.
3) the Golden Realm of Gildesh (let's use the term Golden Realm to distinguish it from the previously existing Golden Empire) tucked away in what is not the center of the Izondian desert.
4) a secretive nation of Carnifex, hidden away in the heart of the Brasol range.

To the southeast, we also have:
5) the Soondyr elves and their ilk (from the Platea thread) [ by the way, the more I think on it, the more I like the idea of having a fractured elven society where Ilsundal Nature-Loving separatists can argue with Vulcanian Technomantic refugees]
6) several nations of Lalor halflings.

One thing I'd like to start thinking about is the climate difference between the BC 2300 era and modern times. Just looking at the KW Brun map in these two time periods shows us that the planet has changed quite a lot in the past several thousand years, and I don't think those kinds of changes should be limited to Brun.

...So... just focusing on the northwestern quarter of Davania, what kind of changes do you think there would be in the map?
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