[Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Rebuilding the world in the wake of the Great Rain of Fire.

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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Cthulhudrew »

Chimpman wrote:Gildesh was a shedu (a winged, human-headed bull) servant of Ixion. I suppose he came from some Outer Plane.
Regarding Gildesh, I've had it in the back of my head (while developing a sort of "Bovoid" genealogy/Creature Crucible type project) that the shedu are Ixion's servitors on his Home Plane, and Gildesh was one of the premier among their ranks. Ixion was so enamored of his servitude that he modified an existing Mystaran race- early "aurochs" style minotaurs- with wings, thus creating the Enduks.

Some of these Enduks later rebelled (the followers of Minoides) and were cursed, becoming a group of the more "modern" minotaurs that we know and love. Remnants of the aurochs-style primitive minotaurs meanwhile had developed along different lines- some probably became "regular" minotaurs, others became yakfolk and goatfolk. (The goatfolk were later to split into a couple of different related breeds; a group of goatfolk who became closely connected to nature spirits developed into the fauns/satyrs/caprines; and magical experiments crossbreeding goatfolk and halflings who split from the 1500 migration and moved up the Serpent Peninsula to the Gulf of Hule region created the ovinaurs; also some twisted aurochs became the bargda.)

Further from that, the Actaeon are created by the Immortals from singular champions of nature found among the Satyrs, and I've been toying with some kind of Antelope-men or something.

I'd never really gotten around to specifying what sort of exemplary service Gildesh had provided or anything. Feel free to use any of this info as you please; who knows if I'll ever get around to finishing or further developing any of it.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Chimpman »

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Zen wrote:Gildesh was a shedu (a winged, human-headed bull) servant of Ixion. I suppose he came from some Outer Plane.
Regarding Gildesh, I've had it in the back of my head (while developing a sort of "Bovoid" genealogy/Creature Crucible type project) that the shedu are Ixion's servitors on his Home Plane, and Gildesh was one of the premier among their ranks. Ixion was so enamored of his servitude that he modified an existing Mystaran race- early "aurochs" style minotaurs- with wings, thus creating the Enduks.
Thanks CD! This kind of history would actually solve a problem I've been having including Minotaur (or minotaur-like creatures) in Taymora during BC 2300, since the true minotaurs (those descended from the Enduks) aren't created until BC 2000.

But I really like the idea that Enduks weren't created out of whole cloth, and that there might be other related varieties of such folk roaming about out there (with yakfolk and goatfolk being prime examples). In fact perhaps the energies of the GRoF helped to transform some of these creatures giving us the distinctions we see in the modern era.

Let's play around with this info and see if we can't find something that works. The "core" of Gildesh' nation could very well be these primitive aurochs-folk with the cream of the crop being transformed by Ixion into winged Enduks after having dedicated their lives (for several generations) to serving Gildesh and helping him with his appointed task.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Cthulhudrew »

Chimpman wrote:But I really like the idea that Enduks weren't created out of whole cloth, and that there might be other related varieties of such folk roaming about out there (with yakfolk and goatfolk being prime examples).
To give some more background, I'd been inspired to try and do something with the minotaurs along the lines of what Bruce Heard did with his breeds for Lupins and Rakasta. While I eventually moved away from the idea of creating separate sub-races (since I just got turned off from the idea of different mechanics for sub-races when humans never were given the same), I was still planning on keeping the idea of them as geographic ethnicities and/or different stages of evolution.

Hence, the "aurochs" type of Minotaur, which would be the common ancestor of them all- a much larger, brutish version than even the current crop. Then, too, I had to try and reconcile that with the Enduk --> Minotaur origins, so decided they were a modified version of the race, and thus could keep that whole part of the mythology.

As can be seen, I eventually even broadened the mythos to include other "bovine" sorts of creatures, such as the Bargda, Goatfolk, and Satyrs- who were already existent in Mystara canon to some extent, as well as Yakfolk (who I think work really well in Ethengar and the Glantrian Alps/Silver Sierras, given the Asian ties there), and some other creatures.
In fact perhaps the energies of the GRoF helped to transform some of these creatures giving us the distinctions we see in the modern era.
Good idea. I hadn't considered that, but I could very easily see the Bargda being a result of genetic mutation from fallout from the GRoF. Giulio Caroletti has come up with some different takes on their origins (as well as the minotaurs) in some of his articles on the Vaults, but I kind of like this one, now that you bring up the suggestion of radiation.
Let's play around with this info and see if we can't find something that works. The "core" of Gildesh' nation could very well be these primitive aurochs-folk with the cream of the crop being transformed by Ixion into winged Enduks after having dedicated their lives (for several generations) to serving Gildesh and helping him with his appointed task.
That could work; it would make it kind of an elitist sort of caste-system, and could very well lead into the sort of discontent that led to the revolt of Minoides (and we could use most of what Giulio came up with as a result, while tweaking it a little bit; instead of them being born without wings, it would be the ones who weren't elevated who came to resent their brethren.)

I had originally planned on the Aurochs being Davanian, in that region, with the Enduks migrating to Brun via the Immortals' Arm (and spreading out afterwards); I was going to thus keep some of the descendants of the Aurochs on the southern continent (such as the possible Antelope/Gazelle type of minotaur that I mentioned).

Other thoughts that I haven't fully developed yet: Minotaurs in the Sind/Atruaghin region. Sindhi minotaurs would probably have an elevated sort of status there (if we analogize Hindi religious beliefs), while the Atruaghin and Known World variety were going to be more "buffalo"-like in appearance and habits.

And, of course, I was planning on tying in Bruce Heard's online work with the Goatmen and their demonic origins in the Slagovich region, as well as probably changing the Yakfolk's AD&D ties to Genies to be tied to Spirits instead (to fit them better with the Ethengar Gaz).
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Zendrolion »

Interesting ideas about minotaurs, Andrew! :cool:
Cthulhudrew wrote:As can be seen, I eventually even broadened the mythos to include other "bovine" sorts of creatures, such as the Bargda, Goatfolk, and Satyrs- who were already existent in Mystara canon to some extent, as well as Yakfolk (who I think work really well in Ethengar and the Glantrian Alps/Silver Sierras, given the Asian ties there), and some other creatures.
I'd rather have them in the Colossus Mountains region, and even in the Kurish Massif, than in the Darokin-Glantri border region. Anyway, I agree yakfolk should be found in that greater general area (Sind-Ethengar-Glantri, perhaps northern Rockhome area).
Chimpman wrote:In fact perhaps the energies of the GRoF helped to transform some of these creatures giving us the distinctions we see in the modern era.
That's a good and simple way for explaining rapid changes, but I'd advise against abusing it or applying it for too many cases. After all the most numerous race, humans, were seemingly not affected by any mutation process (as far as canon goes) - well, thinking about it, you could always say that instead of mutating like other races, they died.
Cthulhudrew wrote:I hadn't considered that, but I could very easily see the Bargda being a result of genetic mutation from fallout from the GRoF. Giulio Caroletti has come up with some different takes on their origins (as well as the minotaurs) in some of his articles on the Vaults, but I kind of like this one, now that you bring up the suggestion of radiation.
Regarding Bargdas, does the Monstrous Compendium - Mystara Appendix book give some adivice about their origin? :?:

As a side note about Gildesh and the shedus, I like to consider them the source of the M-Mesopotamian cultures; my ideas, which I must have already expressed in some other thread, are to have some Mesopotamian-like cultures on Bellissaria - among which the shedu should have been a prominent mythical and divine icon - to explain the inheritance of the shedu as a symbol of royalty and power by the Alphatians (as shown by the shedu on the cover of DotE's Player's Guide to Alphatia).
In this fashion, and back to topic, I wonder if the Golden Realm culture could have some proto-Mesopotamian traits... :?
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Cthulhudrew »

Zendrolion wrote:I'd rather have them in the Colossus Mountains region, and even in the Kurish Massif, than in the Darokin-Glantri border region. Anyway, I agree yakfolk should be found in that greater general area (Sind-Ethengar-Glantri, perhaps northern Rockhome area).
Whoops! I meant the Kurish Massif, not the Silver Sierras. Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of Sind-Ethengar, not Darokin.
Regarding Bargdas, does the Monstrous Compendium - Mystara Appendix book give some adivice about their origin? :?:
Good question. I don't recall. Will have to check it to see.
As a side note about Gildesh and the shedus, I like to consider them the source of the M-Mesopotamian cultures; my ideas, which I must have already expressed in some other thread, are to have some Mesopotamian-like cultures on Bellissaria - among which the shedu should have been a prominent mythical and divine icon - to explain the inheritance of the shedu as a symbol of royalty and power by the Alphatians (as shown by the shedu on the cover of DotE's Player's Guide to Alphatia).
I definitely agree with this. One of the reasons I thought about trying to do at least a little expansion on the background of the shedu as Outer Planar servitors was to try and tie it in with the Alphatians, who have certainly had Other-Planar contacts even dating back to Old Alphatia.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Hugin »

Havard wrote:Very cool Geoff!

Chimpman, here's a map that might be useful to you:
http://blackmoor.mystara.us/img/precataclysmic04.jpg

-Havard
Just as a note, this map uses the option that the old north pole (pre-GRoF north pole) was located near the Sylvan Realm. It is one of the two "canonically derived" locations; the other being Ethengar.

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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Hugin »

OK, some really quick comments after a real quick read.

What about tying in the GRoF's mutating effect with that developing story of the Golden Realm and its unprotected neighbours? If we assume that not all the pre-Enduks ("early "aurochs" style minotaurs"?) migrated to the Golden realm. [As seer mentioned, "the faithful in northern Davania (and parts of southern Brun) migrated en masse to the Guarded Realm", "But there were some who refused to abandon their faiths... So the Dark Times came, and Ixion's faithful enjoyed a safe existence, while those outside starved or grew sick, or fought over diminishing resources"]

So we could have these "minoaurchs" ( :? ) that decided not to migrate 'to Ixion's imaginary land of bliss' be affected by the radiation to develop the Bargda, Yakmen, etc.

The other thing I'd like to suggest, seeing as how I think I'll be using this for GazH, is that the minotaur/shedu imagery is a Ixion "fingerprint". I believe someone mentioned something along the lines that perhaps Ixion had minotaur-like creatures on his home plane as servants. It could very well be that Ixion is responsible for the minotaur/shedu on Mystara.

This leads to another interesting thought, could Ixion have been an Immortal once revered in ancient Old Alphatia. This certainly could be worked into the origins of the "Universal truth of Fiery Domination", which drifted away from Ixion's codes and philosophies to a more self-based understanding of the Plane of Fire which 'replaced' Ixion as "the source of all power and wisdom". Over time, Ixion's symbols (as was given to the Alphatians) became transferred from him to royalty and positions of power.

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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by ripvanwormer »

Zendrolion wrote:Regarding Bargdas, does the Monstrous Compendium - Mystara Appendix book give some adivice about their origin? :?:
It just says they're related to minotaurs ("though the link is weak") and that they're infected with a horrible rotting disease that produces an enzyme needed for them to digest their food. This sounds less like radiation poisoning to me and more like a curse laid upon them by Jammudaru. The Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix notes that bargdas often dominate ogres, trolls, and hill giants, which also suggests a Jammudaru connection to me. Perhaps Jammudaru infected a group of "auroch minotaurs" with a plague that would make them more like him, and encouraged them to dominate other races that worship him. Or perhaps bargdas and the mortal Jammudaru were infected with the same curse, perhaps even victims of the same spellcaster.

When was the goatfolk city of Bielagul at its height? Could it have been in 2300 BC?

On the topic of shedu, I think they must have some connection with lammasu (who would also make good servants for Ixion/Idu). The 2nd edition shedu entry says they speak the languages of the lammasu, humans, and lamias. The 2nd edition lammasu entry says that lammasu have an especially strong distaste for lamias and manticores. Common lamias have the bodies of goats, deer, or lions, perhaps indicating a connection to both lammasu and shedu. The Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix indicates that the snakelike greater lamias exist on Mystara in the form of lamaras, but that other forms apparently don't exist there. That's okay: since shedu and lammasu are apparently extraplanar anyway, any connection might have happened on other planes.

So, question. Should sphinxes, manticores, and chimeras also be connected to lammasu? Should chimeras be connected to shedu as well? How about ogre magi, with their horns?

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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by ripvanwormer »

Okay, suggestions.

Sphinxes: Created by Grammaton originally as servitors, but later freed. On other planes they include the ram-headed criosphinx, but only androsphinxes and gynosphinxes are found on Mystara.

Lammasu and shedu: Servitor races created by Ixion from sphinx stock in the days before the sphinxes were freed. The lammasu bred and uplifted rakastas and the shedu have bred and uplifted minotaurs to create variations of those races on Mystara.

Bariaurs: An outer planar race, not found on Mystara. Descended from shedu who left Ixion's service.

Wemics: Creations of the lammasu, who bred them from rakastas in imitation of their master Ixion's creation of the centaurs.

Lamias/lamara: A corrupted hybrid of lammasu and shedu, transformed by some entropic Immortal or perhaps the carnifex in an attempt to recreate (and improve upon, and possibly mock) Grammaton's original sphinxes. On some worlds, they are found in three varieties: the bestial sa'ir, who are simply hybrids of goats and lions; the common lamias, who are like sa'ir with the upper bodies of humans and magical gifts; and the noble lamia, or lamara, which has a serpentine lower body and a humanlike upper body. Lamaras must mate with humans to produce new lamaras; the child of two lamaras is a common lamia. Lamias must mate with humans to produce other common lamias; the offspring of two common lamias is a sa'ir. Sa'ir can reproduce their own kind.

Manticores: Sphinxes or lammasu, corrupted by some bestial Immortal, or by dragons or carnifex.

Chimeras: An even more bestial corruption of the lamias, twisting their lion, goat, and serpent aspects into a single creature with no humanoid traits. Perhaps an attempt by carnifex or dragons to improve upon the sa'ir.

Bargdas: A tribe of minotaurs blessed/cursed by Jammudaru.

Ogre magi: A tribe of ogres uplifted by the shedu long ago.

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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Chimpman »

I got a little side-tracked, but there are a lot of good ideas happening in this thread.
Cthulhudrew wrote:That could work; it would make it kind of an elitist sort of caste-system, and could very well lead into the sort of discontent that led to the revolt of Minoides (and we could use most of what Giulio came up with as a result, while tweaking it a little bit; instead of them being born without wings, it would be the ones who weren't elevated who came to resent their brethren.)
Yeah, I remember that article. Actually I'd be more in favor of Giulio's explanation for Minoides minotaurs than of using the GRoF... although I think the GRoF could be used to explain a few of the Tauran(?) offshoots. There's also another reason I like that article - it allows us to have 2 different "Tauran" immigrations into the Taymora area.

1) The primal Taurans could have fled Davania (opting not to submit to the Golden Realm), and ended up in Taymora anywhere from BC 3000 to BC 2300. These immigrants would have brought with them the religious baggage of Ixion/Idu depicted as a "bovine" immortal. This plays in well with the Taymoran cult of the Great Bull of the Earth, especially with that cult being tied to earthquakes and volcanoes. Perhaps, although the Taurans brought the faith of Ixion with them, they actually see him more as a "punisher" rather than a savior. This would play in well with eventual destruction of Taymora.

2) The Minotaurs (those "Taurans" who are followers and descendants of Minoides) would make it to the Taymoran lands a few hundred years later, bringing with them a more advanced sea faring tradition. Before this time I don't see the Taymorans as having a strong naval presence, but at some point before their destruction they could acquire this. Some few could stay in Taymora while the rest continue on to other lands as Giulio's article suggests.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Zendrolion wrote:As a side note about Gildesh and the shedus, I like to consider them the source of the M-Mesopotamian cultures; my ideas, which I must have already expressed in some other thread, are to have some Mesopotamian-like cultures on Bellissaria - among which the shedu should have been a prominent mythical and divine icon - to explain the inheritance of the shedu as a symbol of royalty and power by the Alphatians (as shown by the shedu on the cover of DotE's Player's Guide to Alphatia).
In this fashion, and back to topic, I wonder if the Golden Realm culture could have some proto-Mesopotamian traits... :?
I agree with you. The Golden Realm (and anything that predates it) could be the source of an M-Mesopotamian culture.
Hugin wrote:The other thing I'd like to suggest, seeing as how I think I'll be using this for GazH, is that the minotaur/shedu imagery is a Ixion "fingerprint". I believe someone mentioned something along the lines that perhaps Ixion had minotaur-like creatures on his home plane as servants. It could very well be that Ixion is responsible for the minotaur/shedu on Mystara.
I really, really like this idea Hugin. Ixion as a "punisher god" in Taymora really appeals to me, and having this faith migrate from Davania to Brun offers a lot of potential. Since the Great Bull of the Earth is associated with volcanoes and other geological upheaval, we could have sects pop up all over the Sea of Dread that might come into conflict with the kopru's Adhuzan religion.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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ripvanwormer wrote:Okay, suggestions.

Sphinxes: Created by Grammaton originally as servitors, but later freed. On other planes they include the ram-headed criosphinx, but only androsphinxes and gynosphinxes are found on Mystara.

...
I like these ideas rip. Consider them used :mrgreen:
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by ripvanwormer »

So at some point after the departure of Gildesh, the Carnifex capture citizens from the Golden Realm and create the first manticores, chimeras, and lamias? Or before then?

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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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ripvanwormer wrote:So at some point after the departure of Gildesh, the Carnifex capture citizens from the Golden Realm and create the first manticores, chimeras, and lamias? Or before then?
Ohh... I like the idea of the Carnifex capturing citizens from the Golden Realm during the reign of Gildesh. That gives folk from the Realm a mysterious, sinister foe to do battle with. So before then. The question then becomes "how long before then?"

I'd say the Carnifex would be most openly active in the short decades following the GRoF. This would have been the same time frame that Gildesh was actually setting up his sanctuary realm, so it would afford the Carnifex the most opportunity to abduct folk with the least amount of resistance. After that they conduct their experiments, creating creatures to both plague the inhabitants of the area and to operate as the Carnifex's proxies.

If we assume that the Carnifex actually create such creatures, then we might be looking at a unique/new philosophy emerging among the foul creatures. I'd say that previously the Carnifex would have been content to utilize only reptilian servitors, but these Carnifex have made the decision to start mixing mammalian blood into their creations. This could be caused by several reasons, not the least of which might be secrecy. Perhaps the Carnifex figure that a mammalian "skin" might be just enough to hid their "signature" in such works.

And... running with the idea above, this could also be a way to introduce Yuan-ti into the setting. The Carnifex of the Brasol Range could also be working to combine humans with sis'thik in an attempt to create a servitor race that can walk openly on Davania...
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Chimpman wrote:Ixion as a "punisher god" in Taymora really appeals to me, and having this faith migrate from Davania to Brun offers a lot of potential. Since the Great Bull of the Earth is associated with volcanoes and other geological upheaval, we could have sects pop up all over the Sea of Dread that might come into conflict with the kopru's Adhuzan religion.
This is loaded with all kinds of goodies to work with! :twisted:

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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Chimpman »

This is just a post to preserve a couple of ideas I had after reading the Platea thread.
Seer of Yhog wrote:That would work really well as an analogy, given the Earthshakers. Perhaps there are smaller ones (scouts of the larger cities further south) that comb the wastelands in search of resources (minerals, scrap, etc.) These gnomish buggies (basically the size of a motor home, crewed by 4-6 gnomes) might make regular trips to various communities in the interior, where they trade with the locals (who might also gather things they know the gnomes are looking for). If this idea is used, it's likely that the arrival of a gnomish buggy is a major event for a village - people for miles around might come to trade or make deals, share a meal, arrange marriages, etc.
1) Could the Snartan "cloning" policy have started as a way for them to combat the Wasting and other aftereffects of the Great Rain of Fire? Perhaps at first something like 1 gnome out of 100 was immune to the radiance poisoning that caused the Wasting, and in order to preserve their society the gnomes chose to "duplicate" such individuals.
agathokles wrote:I think the larger cities (Snarta, for example) are too warlike to have this type of trade arrangement. I'd make these traders something slightly different -- gnomes who fled the increasingly clone-dominated Snarta, moving northward on smaller, older, and much less heavily armed Earthshaker models. They take advantage of the great deserts to avoid dangerous humanoids and monsters -- their Earthshakers have been modified heavily to recycle water and otherwise survive long desert treks. To allow each Earthshaker to carry significant trade goods, without completely unbalancing the Davanian trade, I'd limit each Earthshaker to a single Gnomish family, as Geoff proposes (maybe slightly more than 4-6, but no more of a dozen or so crewgnomes).
2) I'm thinking that ancient gnomish society (back in the BC 2300 days) could look very much like what GP suggests for the modern day gnomish fringe society. Rather than living on the fringe however, these gnomes are living in the center of Vulcania, scavenging elven ruins to help them build earthshakers to live in. Perhaps seeking shelter inside of an earthshaker was also a way of avoiding some of the aftereffects of the GRoF (although by that time - circa BC 2400 when Vulcania explodes - there might not be many aftereffects left to combat... unless we have a few more scattered LRoF/Drizzles down there around that timeframe)?
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Chimpman »

Copied from another thread:
Seer of Yhog wrote:KWYTHELLAR

The large-ish nation surrounding part of the Izondian Wall is Kwythellar, an elf-dominated nation whose inhabitants aren't overly cheerful. Its major settlements are numbers 2 and 3 on that map; although there are certainly others. The goblins of Kresh are the elves' former slaves. This was Jeff Daly's baby, back in the day, and it's one region that I would have liked to see developed more.

There is a partial map of Kwythellar (southeastern part) on the Vaults. Settlement 3 on that map has been named Tiar-Tene. Given that it's at the mouth of a river (the Teni River), it's probably well-resourced, and I would be inclined to make it the capital.
See... you learn something new/old everyday ;). There's not a lot here, but I think enough to build on.

One issue that jumps up right away is the inclusion of "goblins" in this area (and a massive number of them). If Kwythellar conquered this region before Ilsundal left Davania (Ilsundal is on the Savage Coast circa BC 2300), then that places those events somewhere between BC 2500 and BC 2300. "Goblins" were just forming as a species around this time period, and most of the beastman population that we know of was in Urzud (northern Brun).

There is something interesting here as well though, and that's the fact that the elves bread at least one new race from the "goblin" stock. Could these goblins have been some offshoot of the beastmen? Possibly an offshoot that was not fully developed yet and still susceptible to changes. That might have made them a prime target for breeding experiments (something the elves may have known based on Blackmoorian lore).

It also seems like Keythellar could tie in fairly nicely with some of the lore we've built up for the Platea region. It seems like the elves who opposed Ilsundal were just as fractured as the elves who choose to follow him.

I'll add these two nations to the front page index.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

Post by Chimpman »

I'm moving some topics over from the Davania AC 1000 thread (so as not to dilute that discussion).
Seer of Yhog wrote:Some abandoned their faiths and converted, and gained admission. While many were sincere, others were not but were able to hide their motives well enough from even magical detection (possibly with the aid of their own Immortal patrons, if said patron had an agenda :twisted:). While the newcomers were grateful, the natives looked down on them, and many questioned the sincerity of their conversions. Newcomers were forced to live on the outskirts of the Realm, to the City, and were denied entry to certain places deemed very important by the priests. At first this was because the natives (quite reasonably) feared that the newcomers might bring disease - or the Wasting - with them. But the initial reasons were forgotten over time, though the practice was maintained.

By the time Gildesh leaves, the two-tiered nature of the Realm's society (the Faithful vs. the Newcomers) is well entrenched. Progressive elements, wanting to preserve the Realm, urge the rulers to end the practice, but the powerful traditionalists declare that this practice is what allowed the Realm to endure as long as it had. In the meantime, descendants of the Newcomers, while still loyal, are embittered, and some are listening to poisonous talk in the Fringe Towns, of the need to take control...
Strum wrote:Talkai 300.000. A theocracy of Ixion founded in 2800 bc from refugees of New Blackmoor joined in 600 bc by Varellyan dissidents. Many Sollux among them. From ancient times they fight Sis'thik to the south: jungles in the north with villages, capital (Soltai) and cities (Kuxta, Lumka, Liata, Suhita) in the central hills, an important temple (Xiontai) in the east and a bit of desert in the south. Thay should have forts and fortresses along the borders with Shain and Shir.
I'm thinking that these two pieces of information might fit pretty well together. The "Talkai", although still Ixion worshipers, could have been late comers to the Realm of Gildesh, and therefore been relegated to the role of Newcomers. Added to that the fact that they were Thonian (most might see them as Blackmoorian) and could have been blamed for the GRoF in the first place.

The Thonians might have also played a large role in the eventual downfall of the nation, themselves relocating to an outlying region of the realm and founding Talkaiat some point after the collapse (maybe circa BC 2200). So while they could have moved into the area circa BC 2800, maybe they fell under the umbrella of the Realm of Gildesh for several hundred years before breaking away.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Sturm wrote:Mis 100.000 Minotaurs nomad that from time to time attack their neighbours: You know the entry of this place yet. I would add that they probably shouldn't have permanent villages but only a temple or "sacred place" on the southern shore of the lake in the north (the name of the temple should be Ela Mis). Their territory shoul be jungles in the north east and prairies everywhere else (maybe with desert patches)
Yet more tie ins with the Realm of Gildesh. These could either be the original "taurans" who fled the destruction of the Realm of Gildesh, or they could be those taurans who didn't subscribe to Ixion's faith and thus were never a part of the Realm, or they could be actual minotaurs returning from Nimmur after the death of Gildesh (ie those who followed Minoides). Or there could be a mix of all three things going on here.
Sturm wrote:Izonda: 1.350.000 inhabitants. From the north, Izonda has five provinces, but every province often comprises many cultures.
Once again, this could be directly related to all the different races that were shielded under the umbrella of the Realm of Gildesh.
Sturm wrote: ...
The dominant faith in Djaza was the church of Thanatos, but since it has been outlawed has been overcome by the church of Vanya. Amuro is the central province with the capital N'djazo, 200.000 inhabitants, on the southern shore of the Amuro lake. Amuro comprises the prairies, hills, rocky desert and mountains around the lake, it's dominated by the church of Korotiku and it has ten family strongholds too.
I like the idea that the Realm of Gildesh was founded by Ixion worshipers (Gildesh being their high priest), but other immortals would probably have found a way to worm in on his territory. Korotiku seems like one such immortal who probably could have played an allied role to the church of Ixion.

As the Realm crumbled I think it would be likely that darker immortals such as Thanatos and Jammudaru (when did he become an immortal?) would have gained dominance. His presence might still be felt in the area, only just now (circa AC 1000) being displaced/fought by other immortals and their followers.
Sturm wrote:Djaza, the western province of Izonda, comprises all the western desert from the prairies in the north to the badlands in the south. El Djazair, the capital of the province, is a stronghold of 50.000 inhabitants near to the border with Arica. The ten families' strongholds of this provinces are spread among the oasis of the desert, and the people here have more human blood than orc kin blood. In the north west, near to the border with zebrataurs' lands, there is a dragon territories inhabited by hundreds of dragons allied with the dictatorship, with at least 50.000 lizard men and sis'thik servants. The capital of the dragon territory is named N'kodar. Tribes of conscricted Sis'thik live in the south western half of the province. The western province is traditionally dedicated to Hel. Shoda, the eastern province, comprise the east desert from the border with Eseri to a line passing just under the "desert of izonda" tag of my border map. The capital is named A'shamor and has 50.000 inhabitants. The north east of Izonda, the area near to the eseri border, is inhabited by 100.000 people mostly of oltec and neathar descent, dominated sternly by three powerful family strongholds. The province is traditionally dedicated to the church of Jammudaru. The southern province of Izonda is named Anada and its capital, Sodar, has 50.000 inhabitants and is located in the middle of the province. 100.000 Lizard men, troglodytes and sis'thik roam the province, 50.000 gyerians and black griffons live in the southern hills and a city of Sollux allied with Izonda, Sulan, with 50.000 inhabitants, is located in the volcanis area of the south. The province is traditionally dominated by the church of Valerias and Ixion.
The Sis'thik of the desert I can see as being servants (knowing or unknowing) of the Carnifex at the time. Sollux seem like a good fit as lieutenants of Ixion's faith.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Chimpman wrote: 3) the Golden Realm of Gildesh (let's use the term Golden Realm to distinguish it from the previously existing Golden Empire) tucked away in what is not the center of the Izondian desert.
When writing about Pelatan and Izonda I thought that the golden empire was very big, in all western Davania, at least the area of izondian desert, pelatan shield and arica (http://digilander.libero.it/Halag/davania2.htm). After the GroF the lawful dragons decided to dissolve the realm because they thought their influence would have prevent other races to develop freely. In the area of Pelatan a new realm of enduks, sollux and sphynxes rose, inhabited also by lawful dragons, gyerians, fairy folk, zebrataurs, crabmen (AD&D creature), small group of elves. Araneas and Pegataurs also came from Brun after the Great Rain of Fire... The Izondian desert could not be a desert yet, maybe the process of desertification was triggered by the GroF and still in progress around 2300 Bc, anyway the area should be inhabited mostly by gyerians, zebrataurs, some dragons and reptilian races... maybe some of the reptilians are from a group that split from the serpentines and the carnifex of central/eastern Davania and went west to live under the protection of the lawful dragons...
Also in the north should live other crabmen and the descendant of an oltec colony (later to originate nations as Makal, Eseri and others), Kogolor dwarves and the goblins of Kresh of which I was talking about here.. (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5710&start=50)
Just my thoughts..
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Sturm wrote:
Chimpman wrote: 3) the Golden Realm of Gildesh (let's use the term Golden Realm to distinguish it from the previously existing Golden Empire) tucked away in what is not the center of the Izondian desert.
When writing about Pelatan and Izonda I thought that the golden empire was very big, in all western Davania, at least the area of izondian desert, pelatan shield and arica (http://digilander.libero.it/Halag/davania2.htm).
Sorry, I brought you in at the end of a rather long conversation, but you are correct. The Golden Empire was a very large entity. We've made a distinction between that (which would have existed pre-GRoF) and the Realm of Gildesh (which would have existed post-GRoF). The Realm of Gildesh was basically a way to help explain the creation of the Enduks and of Gildesh's "great service" to Ixion.
Sturm wrote:After the GroF the lawful dragons decided to dissolve the realm because they thought their influence would have prevent other races to develop freely. In the area of Pelatan a new realm of enduks, sollux and sphynxes rose, inhabited also by lawful dragons, gyerians, fairy folk, zebrataurs, crabmen (AD&D creature), small group of elves. Araneas and Pegataurs also came from Brun after the Great Rain of Fire...
These are all great suggestions for races in this area at this time, and in fact it sounds like the Peletan races are a perfect fit for inhabitants of the realm of Gildesh. However, there is one problem with regard to enduks - they are not actually created until BC 2300, when Ixion creates them as a reward for some "service" that Gildesh performs for him. We've been theorizing here that the enduks were not created out of thin air, but instead were modified by Ixion from a progenitor race of bovine creatures. I've been calling them taurans. It's from this progenitor race that first enduks and then minotaurs are created. Minotaurs don't exist until BC 2000, sometime after the death of Gildesh. [These dates are taken from the Savage Coast.]

More about the location of the Realm of Gildesh below:
Sturm wrote:The Izondian desert could not be a desert yet, maybe the process of desertification was triggered by the GroF and still in progress around 2300 Bc, anyway the area should be inhabited mostly by gyerians, zebrataurs, some dragons and reptilian races... maybe some of the reptilians are from a group that split from the serpentines and the carnifex of central/eastern Davania and went west to live under the protection of the lawful dragons...
It is possible that the Izondan desert didn't exist before BC 3000, but I do like the idea that it was created shortly thereafter... and in fact I really like the idea that it was much larger in that time. If the entire region was a desolate wasteland (caused by the GRoF) this would be a very good reason for Ixion to send a "protector" (that being Gildesh) to save his faithful followers.

Thinking about this some more I think I might do the following:
1) Make a substantial portion of the Izondan area into a large desert. The desert might exclude some of the northern coast (where the Kwythellar eventually settle) but could extend down into Peletan.
2) Make the oasis at the center of Izonda much larger. This would represent Gildesh's efforts to create a sanctuary for his followers, but would also shrink drastically after he leaves the area. We could have an "Alfheim-Ylaruam" situation here where Gildesh is pulling water from surrounding areas to feed his own realm and in the process creating deserts surrounding him.
3) After Gildesh leaves the center oasis in Izonda shrinks, but so too does the desert. This would mean that folks who were living in the sanctuary would have to radiate outwards to the edges of the (now shrinking) Izonda desert. This provides a reason for people to immigrate and move around the area and could also provide us with a lot of potential for conflict and adventure.

Having said all of the above I don't think there is any need to change anything for the modern age write-up of the area. The cultures and nations get a little added history with many of them at first flocking to Gildesh's banner and then later being forced to flee the area to seek more sustainable lands - eventually ending up in their present day locations.
Sturm wrote:Also in the north should live other crabmen and the descendant of an oltec colony (later to originate the nations as Makal, Eseri and others), Kogolor dwarves and the goblins of Kresh of which I was talking about here.. (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5710&start=50)
Yes, I like this idea. I think it would be an excellent opportunity to explore the conflict between the Kwythellar elves and the above people. Based on elven immigration dates I'd say that the Kwythellar conquest of the above lands would have happened somewhere between BC 2500 and BC 2300. In fact the dispute between Kwythellar and Ilsundal might have been a major factor in Ilsundal leaving the area for the Savage Coast.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Chimpman wrote:We've been theorizing here that the enduks were not created out of thin air, but instead were modified by Ixion from a progenitor race of bovine creatures. I've been calling them taurans. It's from this progenitor race that first enduks and then minotaurs are created. Minotaurs don't exist until BC 2000, sometime after the death of Gildesh. [These dates are taken from the Savage Coast.]
It's a good story, so taurans were in the area since Blackmoor times and before.. that imho explain also the presence of Sollux, who are definitely a race connected to Ixion..
Based on elven immigration dates I'd say that the Kwythellar conquest of the above lands would have happened somewhere between BC 2500 and BC 2300. In fact the dispute between Kwythellar and Ilsundal might have been a major factor in Ilsundal leaving the area for the Savage Coast.
Yes, I thought so too...
About the races mentioned in my draft of Pelatan the only one I didn't mention before are the beholders... I put them in Pelatan because they certainly have a matriarchal society and I liked the rather unorthodox idea of a not-xenophobic faction of beholders willing to live among other races.. But AFAIK they are a race spread in all the multiverse so they could have come to Pelatan in any time period, you could use them in 2300 bc or not..
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Chimpman wrote:Yes, I like this idea. I think it would be an excellent opportunity to explore the conflict between the Kwythellar elves and the above people. Based on elven immigration dates I'd say that the Kwythellar conquest of the above lands would have happened somewhere between BC 2500 and BC 2300. In fact the dispute between Kwythellar and Ilsundal might have been a major factor in Ilsundal leaving the area for the Savage Coast.
A lot to digest here, but I will say that if the Kwythellar elves are just moving in around BC 2300 (which would make the region more interesting, in that elves are portrayed as an aggressor, rather than an ancient people in decline), then they will be quite different from the decadent bunch in AC 1000. The militaristic (or other) ideals would be fresh, the troops would be highly motivated, and the society would be vibrant (but no less nasty to non-elves).

Kwythellar as of AC 1000 is probably a truly sickening place. Think Thalion (from GAZ F3), but allowed to fester for an extra 2000 years or so. But enough digression.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Seer of Yhog wrote:A lot to digest here, but I will say that if the Kwythellar elves are just moving in around BC 2300 (which would make the region more interesting, in that elves are portrayed as an aggressor, rather than an ancient people in decline), then they will be quite different from the decadent bunch in AC 1000. The militaristic (or other) ideals would be fresh, the troops would be highly motivated, and the society would be vibrant (but no less nasty to non-elves).
By BC 2300 Ilsundal is already well along the Savage Coast, so I think that the Kwythellar conquest should have already take place at this point. Or at least they have conquered and secures some core territory and perhaps are continuing to expand. Regardless, I agree that their militaristic bent should be at the forefront of their cultural traits.

It may also be around this time that they begin to "perfect" their breeding program. Humans, goblins and dwarves of the area would either be slaves or fighting to keep their freedom.
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Re: [Mystara 2300 BC] Davania

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Chimpman wrote: By BC 2300 Ilsundal is already well along the Savage Coast, so I think that the Kwythellar conquest should have already take place at this point. Or at least they have conquered and secures some core territory and perhaps are continuing to expand. Regardless, I agree that their militaristic bent should be at the forefront of their cultural traits.
It may also be around this time that they begin to "perfect" their breeding program. Humans, goblins and dwarves of the area would either be slaves or fighting to keep their freedom.
Good ideas! I was wondering what could have happened by 1000 ac to the servants races in Kwithellar land... maybe after centuries they're so used to slavery they cannot even think to rebel, or maybe they are picking new ideas of freedom from foreign lands..
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