[movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILERS

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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by agathokles » Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:06 am

Come on, Marvel did a lot of movies more or less out of existing Comics... sure, they change lots of things between comics and films, and have a large number of different continuities, but they do not simply "drop" the entire universe.

And, once more, the only original character who could not appear in a movie compatible with the EU is Chewbacca (and, of course, Kylo Ren, but there is another character with the same role).

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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by Saunatonttu » Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:54 pm

If they had not stated publicly, that this was a non EU-compatible movie, I would either have expected to go into Episode VII and to have seen Heir to the Empire (which would require new actors to play the original Star Wars characters, as it is set 9 years ABY) or I would expect to see a movie that has to somehow explain to the audience all the EU changes in the 30 years since the Battle of Yarvin.
And that's one of the greatest reasons for them to have avoided saying it. Just make the movie. And those "continuity" and "canon" based fanboys - instead of folks who want fun - would have been the only ones to care. Of course I think Lucasfilm already went badly wrong back in the day by doing the whole "EU" division, when it's all just Star Wars.

Yeah, I quite dislike the idea of "canon". =)
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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by Big Mac » Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:00 pm

agathokles wrote:Come on, Marvel did a lot of movies more or less out of existing Comics... sure, they change lots of things between comics and films, and have a large number of different continuities, but they do not simply "drop" the entire universe.
I'm not sure that Marvel movies are a good example considering the nerd rage they got when they cast Michael B. Jordan to play Johnny Storm. Oddly enough there was no nerd rage about the switch from David Hasselhoff to Samuel L. Jackson for the Nick Fury role. ;)

And I believe that both Wonder Woman and Captain America have jumped through time. And Joss Whedon said he had problems writing a script for Wonder Woman, as he couldn't make the story feel right for him.

There is plenty of ranting about Marvel stuff, but people just accept that changes are normal there. But Star Wars seems to be something where fans think it has to be "correct".

The good thing about running tabletop Star Wars games is that people can use the novels, comic books, animated shows and computer games that they like best and ignore what they dislike.

Canon is just a tool.

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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by agathokles » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:20 pm

Big Mac wrote:
agathokles wrote:Come on, Marvel did a lot of movies more or less out of existing Comics... sure, they change lots of things between comics and films, and have a large number of different continuities, but they do not simply "drop" the entire universe.
I'm not sure that Marvel movies are a good example considering the nerd rage they got when they cast Michael B. Jordan to play Johnny Storm. Oddly enough there was no nerd rage about the switch from David Hasselhoff to Samuel L. Jackson for the Nick Fury role. ;)
Nick Fury's role changed considerably from the original comics, even within the comics. And Samuel L. Jackson is so good you can't really complain... Johnny Storm's change is a bit pointless, in comparison.
There is plenty of ranting about Marvel stuff, but people just accept that changes are normal there. But Star Wars seems to be something where fans think it has to be "correct".
[/quote]

Well, there are major differences in how canon is handled. In the Marvel Universe, there are different realities, some are more important than others, but there is no "primary" canon. Also, in the Marvel Universe a reboot is usually handled as a reboot -- with a new reality. So the new F4 is a different reality from the old F4.
Star Wars has been handled differently (once more, it's a choice).

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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by Havard » Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:21 pm

Big Mac wrote:I'm not sure that Marvel movies are a good example considering the nerd rage they got when they cast Michael B. Jordan to play Johnny Storm. Oddly enough there was no nerd rage about the switch from David Hasselhoff to Samuel L. Jackson for the Nick Fury role. ;)
A few things to take into consideration:
1) Nicky Fury is part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU). The Fantastic Four lisence is owned by Fox, who are doing a spectacularly awful job with it.
2) The MCU version of Nick Fury is based on the Ultimates version of Nick Fury who looked like Sam Jackson, long before there were any movies in the MCU.
3) I don't think the rage against Michael Jordan was actual nerd rage. I think it was mainly racists trying to stir up stuff among the comic book movie fandom. Many of those people who criticise a Black Johnny Storm or a Black or female Star Wars protagonist turn out to not really be fans of the F4 or Star Wars anyway, so the proper fans should not have to answer for that nonsense. Of course, in the case of the latest F4 movie, the skin colour of Johnny Storm turned out to be the least of things fans would need to worry about with that epic piece of garbage.

The good thing about running tabletop Star Wars games is that people can use the novels, comic books, animated shows and computer games that they like best and ignore what they dislike.

Canon is just a tool.
Very True. :)

In the case of movies though, I am more interested in having a good movie than having the director have to worry about decades of books, comic books and games. Having said that, I do like many parts of the EU (at least pre New Jedi Order) so it is a little sad to see that setting go.



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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by agathokles » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:06 am

Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I'm not sure that Marvel movies are a good example considering the nerd rage they got when they cast Michael B. Jordan to play Johnny Storm. Oddly enough there was no nerd rage about the switch from David Hasselhoff to Samuel L. Jackson for the Nick Fury role. ;)
A few things to take into consideration:
1) Nicky Fury is part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU). The Fantastic Four lisence is owned by Fox, who are doing a spectacularly awful job with it.
2) The MCU version of Nick Fury is based on the Ultimates version of Nick Fury who looked like Sam Jackson, long before there were any movies in the MCU.
3) I don't think the rage against Michael Jordan was actual nerd rage. I think it was mainly racists trying to stir up stuff among the comic book movie fandom. Many of those people who criticise a Black Johnny Storm or a Black or female Star Wars protagonist turn out to not really be fans of the F4 or Star Wars anyway, so the proper fans should not have to answer for that nonsense. Of course, in the case of the latest F4 movie, the skin colour of Johnny Storm turned out to be the least of things fans would need to worry about with that epic piece of garbage.
Very true. In any case, the problem with Ep. VII is certainly not Finn or Rey...

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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by Saunatonttu » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:50 am

Having said that, I do like many parts of the EU (at least pre New Jedi Order) so it is a little sad to see that setting go.
Well, while I do not think there was an "EU" to begin with, it really did not go anywhere. Just like the old Marvel comics run never went anywhere and stuff like splinter of the mind's eye never went anywhere. :)

Speaking of which, I think I am going to start a reread of the Marvel comics. And maybe watch the Force Awakens again soon :)
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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by night_druid » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:07 am

I honestly do not envy the next director; Abrams left him very little to work with. There isn't a single villain that's credible; all three of the main villains are shown to be clowns. The good guys, save for maybe two characters, will need wheelchairs for the next movie...;)

Episode 8 might require a complete purge of the new characters and introduce a whole new cast.
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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by Saunatonttu » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:48 pm

Eh? Rey is one of the top two characters (her and Kenobi) in the whole Star Wars (and that's a huge thing, considering there are characters like Tagges, Crimson Jack and Jolli, Rick Duel Gang, Valance the Hunter, Jaxxxon, Sabine Wren, Wedge and Lando F'n Calrissian also in the running)

Also, they won't have any problems with Kylo Ren now he is over the moral event horizon and can also start the next movie fully trained. The fact they managed to make him so uncool (in a good way) is quite a feat of villainbuilding.
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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by agathokles » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:27 pm

Saunatonttu wrote:Eh? Rey is one of the top two characters (her and Kenobi) in the whole Star Wars (and that's a huge thing, considering there are characters like Tagges, Crimson Jack and Jolli, Rick Duel Gang, Valance the Hunter, Jaxxxon, Sabine Wren, Wedge and Lando F'n Calrissian also in the running).
This seems a bit eccessive, both because very little is known about her (so her background story might be good or bad, but it seems to early to assess it either way), and because she suffers from the inflation problem that is omnipresent in Episode VII.

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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by Havard » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:30 pm

One thing I liked about Episode VII is how it left me wanting to know more about the characters. I want to know more about their backstories and more about what happens to them. Overall, I think this is a great thing.

In particular, I am thinking not only of Rey, but also of Fin and Poe Dameron.

Also, I am curious to see what happens to Kylo Ren, General Hux and even Captain Phasma. Phasma was a bit of a disappointment, but again I think it will depend on how her story is developed. Unless they decide to dump her of course, but I think she was already confirmed for Ep VIII.

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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by agathokles » Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:09 pm

Havard wrote:One thing I liked about Episode VII is how it left me wanting to know more about the characters. I want to know more about their backstories and more about what happens to them. Overall, I think this is a great thing.
I think this shows how different are our points of view. This is one of the things I disliked the most. And, if you want a comparison with the original trilogy, it is something that rarely if ever happens there -- of course, there's the "Luke, I'm your father" moment in Episode V, and some hint that Leia is Luke's sister, but it's not like there's a big blinking red arrow saying "hey, we're going to have a surprise here in the next film".
Also, I am curious to see what happens to Kylo Ren, General Hux and even Captain Phasma. Phasma was a bit of a disappointment, but again I think it will depend on how her story is developed. Unless they decide to dump her of course, but I think she was already confirmed for Ep VIII.
If she's an Episode VIII character, Phasma should have been omitted entirely in Episode VII. It's not like you can't introduce new characters in Episode VIII, and the scenes she takes part in in Episode VII are pointless.

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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by Saunatonttu » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:35 pm

If she's an Episode VIII character, Phasma should have been omitted entirely in Episode VII. It's not like you can't introduce new characters in Episode VIII, and the scenes she takes part in in Episode VII are pointless.
Pointless is good. Reality is often pointless.

I really, really liked Captain Phasma's "pointless" role in the movie. Not having any sort of character arc goes against the usual, tired "rules" of storytelling that I always applaud being broken. :)

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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by willpell » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:12 pm

I haven't seen Episode 7 and don't intend to, so I wasn't planning to participate in this topic. But having stumbled upon this bit, I have to respond.
Big Mac wrote:The critics have been bashing the Disney purchase of Star Wars since it was first announced, so the first Star Wars movie they made had to be something that would win over critics. Including the actual actors that were in the most popular Star Wars movies that George Lucas made is a no-brainer decision.
In the sense of being made through the use of no brains, perhaps. Harrison Ford is so far over the hill that he's got cloud and storm giants telling him to get off their lawn. Having him come back and play the same character, who surprise-surprise has aged just as much as the actor has, is hardly the most reasonable decision for them to have made. They already had "Indiana Jones 4" to show them how big of a mistake this kind of decision could be, with the same actor no less! Perhaps this doddering ancient actually managed to turn in a decent performance in this one, but I for one dont' believe it, and certainly don't intend to put one dollar into Disney's pocket in order to find out.

If they wanted to pay homage to the spirit of the original stars, they should have done exactly what Lucas did in 1977 - hire a bunch of fresh-faced young talents that nobody had ever heard of, and have them play entirely original characters that they poured themselves into, proving their acting chops and the virtue of the story at the same time. They shouldn't have made a new story set 30 years after the first trilogy; Luke Skywalker shouldn't be moving on to the Obi-Wan or Darth Vader role (both of these were rumored, I don't know whether either is true - Mon Mothma is a third possibility which I don't recall hearing anyone mention, but not a better one otherwise). Instead, he should assume the same narrative role that Darth Plagueis assumes in Episode 3 - he's nothing but a name, a legendary name to be sure, mentioned by one of the central figures in these movies solely for the point of alluding to the qualities he was said to have possessed, with reference to a figure in the current story possibly having those same qualities.

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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by agathokles » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:14 pm

Harrison Ford is one of the few points in favour of the movie, actually...

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Re: [movie] Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens SPOILER

Post by Havard » Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:00 am

agathokles wrote:Harrison Ford is one of the few points in favour of the movie, actually..
Yep. Harrison Ford is back! It is clear that he enjoyed returning to this role. After many lazy roles of late, he brought his A-game to this one.

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