Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

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Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Ambreville » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:00 pm

Greetings to all!

I just picked this thread to avoid creating another for just one question. I'm working on the details of a Lao-Kweian giant ship, inspired from the Chinese treasure ships of the Zheng He expeditions. It's (of course) a skyship. Now that I have to key this monstrous vessel, I realize I do need the names of ancient Chinese naval ranks. Does anyone have some good source material on this by any chance?

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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by julius_cleaver » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:06 pm

I don't know them...but know someone who could point you in the right direction, and is fairly decent at answering inquiries.
Angus Konstam has written many books for Osprey publishing concerning naval subjects. He has his own website here:

http://www.anguskonstam.com/

Hope this helps!
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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Ambreville » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:10 am

OK, thanks!
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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Cthulhudrew » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:32 am

Tidu (提督) was basically the equivalent of an admiral (it translates roughly to Captain General or Admiral, IIRC). I'm not sure of any other ranks besides that, but a quick search did yield this page which might be a little help, or at least could possibly point you in the right direction.

I'll keep poking around and see if I can turn up anything else.

EDIT: There's also this post about a fictional setting. I'm not sure those are actual ranks he's using or made up names; I'd have to fact check it a bit more to be sure.
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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Cthulhudrew » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:43 am

A couple more links for you- both have some info on naval ranks.

Looks like a lot of this info is late Qing dynasty, though, and perhaps not quite as old as you're looking for. A few sources I've quickly referenced online seem to suggest there wasn't much of a formal naval organization prior to that, though one would imagine there must have been something- and I'm not sure a few minutes of quick google-fu is something to make a snap judgment on in any event.
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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Ambreville » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:13 am

This is a real mess -- between the various periods, languages, and diversity of terminology, it's darn near i possible to get a clear picture. It is nonetheless fascinating. :shock:
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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Cthulhudrew » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:14 am

A little more research and checking against some of my Chinese history books, it looks like the first imperial navy was established in 1132 during the Song dynasty. Prior to that, I'd imagine that naval ranks would be provincial, and might have many different names, which would make it harder to pin anything down, at least without some more research beyond my current library.
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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Cthulhudrew » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:21 am

From your post, it sounds like you're interested in the treasure ships of Zheng He, which was during Ming dynasty China. That might narrow things down a bit. I didn't see any ranks noted in my copy of 1421, but that isn't necessarily surprising. I'll give it a closer look and see if it might have something that can at least direct a search for that info.
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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Thorf » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:07 am

Setorius wrote:I don't know them...but know someone who could point you in the right direction, and is fairly decent at answering inquiries.
Angus Konstam has written many books for Osprey publishing concerning naval subjects. He has his own website here:

http://www.anguskonstam.com/

Hope this helps!
Small world... I recognised the name immediately, and his web site confirms it: Angus Konstam is an Orcadian, like me. Orkney may be a small place, but we sure get around! :D

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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Yaztromo » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:17 pm

Thorf wrote:Orkney may be a small place
...and a very special one for sure!*




*during summer months... :roll:
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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by julius_cleaver » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:12 am

So Thorf...consider yourself a Scott?
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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Yaztromo » Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:49 pm

You haven't seen Orcadian flag, for sure...;-)
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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Ambreville » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:32 pm

Orcadian Flag:

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And a bit of local news:

http://www.orcadian.co.uk/2013/06/icela ... in-orkney/

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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Thorf » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:50 pm

That's the local newspaper. :)

Normally I wouldn't mind talking about nationality, but right now it's a hugely political issue which we're probably best not getting into here. :(

But regardless of the Scotland part, yes in my experience most Orcadians consider ourselves Orcadian first. There's a lot to be proud of in Orkney, and the isolation of being an island group separated from the mainland has its advantages as well as inconveniences.

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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Ambreville » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:46 pm

On the political side, we'd end up with the People's Republic of Orkney. On the plus side, we could officially call its proud citizens "pro's." :D
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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Justinov » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:35 pm

Thorf wrote:That's the local newspaper. :)

Normally I wouldn't mind talking about nationality, but right now it's a hugely political issue which we're probably best not getting into here. :(

But regardless of the Scotland part, yes in my experience most Orcadians consider ourselves Orcadian first. There's a lot to be proud of in Orkney, and the isolation of being an island group separated from the mainland has its advantages as well as inconveniences.
So if not going into politics we can get into historical and juridical fact.

First genetics that corroborates the historical documents: The Orkneys were settled by primarily Norwegian men and even today 60% of the population have Norse Y-chromosome markers.

It was incorperated into the Norwegian Crown under Haraldr hárfagri (Harald Fairhair or more accurate "Hair-Fair" :mrgreen: ) in 875 and it was given to a Jarl of Møre (Earl) Rǫgnvaldr Eysteinsson, whose family ruled in the Norwegian Kings name until 1231 when Jon Haraldsson was murdered.

In 1397 the Kalmer Union brought all the Scandinavian Monarchies together lead by the daughter of the Danish King Valdemar IV Atterdag (“Dawn Again“) - Margrete I Valdemarsdatter. She was never officially Queen, but both “Wife and Husbond and Guardian of the Danish Kingdom“ (“fuldmægtig frue og husbonde og Danmarks riges formynder“) for her nephew Bogislaw/Bugislav of Pomerania. He took the nordic name Erik when it became clear he was first in line after Margrete's own son Oluf had died.
So Orkney and Shetland was now part of the Kalmar Union, but the title Jarl of Orkney had already passed to the Sinclair family in 1379 who administrated it for the Danish Crown .
Erik of Pomerania was deposed by the Danes and the Swedes in 1439. That brought, what was to be the last descendent of Valdemar IV Atterdag - Christoffer III of Bavaria - to the thrones as he was elected in Denmark in 1440, in Sweden 1441 and Norway 1442. When Christoffer died in 1448 Denmark elected Christian I of Oldenburg, while the Swedes and later Norwegians elected Karl VIII Knutsson (Bonde) as King. Christian I "convinced" the Norwegians to back him instead by sending a large fleet. An agreement was signed that Norway and Denmark was to become a dual monarchy to be "forever joint"
So Orkney and Shetland was now part of the Danish-Norwegian dual monarchy under Christian I of Oldenburg.

In 1468 Christian I wanted to marry his daughter Margrete to the Scottish King James III. To pay the dowry he pawned/pledged the Islands of Shetland and Orkney to the Scottish King with an important clause that it could always be returned to the Danish-Norwegian Kingdom when the pledged was paid.

Denmark-Norway split in 1814 at the end of the Napoleonic War to avoid Sweden to annex Norway as East-Denmark (Skåne, Halland & Blekinge) and parts of Norway ( Bohuslen & Jämtland) had been in 1645 or 1658. That split in 1814 made the territories of Greenland, Iceland, Faroese Islands, (Shetland & Orkney, se below) go to Denmark as Norway broke free in a staged rebellion and got their Constitution of Eidsvoll under the Danish Prince Christian Frederik, that was crowned as Norwegian King. Thus preventing the Swedes to annex Norway totally in 1815 as Norway kept their new made laws. The staged rebellion of the Danish Prince (officially treason, but secretly supported by the Danish King) had hoped that England would support Norwegian Independence and avoid Swedish rule, but the English said no.

So "de jure" (according to Law) Orkney and Shetland is now part of the Danish Monarchy. It is on loan to the Scottish King until we pay the pledge. "De facto" (according to fact) is of course another matter. Whether Scotland and England entered a Union in 1707 the juridical fact doesn't change, that Orkney and Shetland is on loan until the pledge is paid back. If Scotland break totally free of the Union it doesn't change that juridical fact either.
If Denmark pays back the money (a lot of interests - I don't know if anyone had calculated what the sum would be?): Shetland and Orkney will become part of the Danish Monarchy as likely self governing bodies just like Greenland and the Faroese Islands (Iceland became a Republic and totally independent in 1944 during WW2).
So if anyone has a lot of money and want to create "political turmoil", that's one way to use them..... ;)

Based on "de jure" all that is in the way of self governing independence for Orkney and Shetland is a bag of money handed over from the Danish Crown to the British Crown.
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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Thorf » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:52 am

Thanks for the explanation, Justinov. A lot of what you said is of course common knowledge in Orkney and Shetland, but there were also a lot of details I hadn't heard before. :)

I found this article giving a projection of how much the dowry would be in modern money. The rather surprising answer is that it may in fact be an affordable sum, at least as far as governments are concerned.

This issue is exceedingly relevant now that Scottish independence is on the table, because regardless of the result of that referendum, a lot of people in Orkney and Shetland would like to see more local autonomy than we currently have. One common perspective in the islands is that Edinburgh is not really any better than London; both are far off urban centres, dictating things on their own terms to the rural islands.

It would be very interesting if Norway or Denmark were to begin dialogue on the whole issue. :D

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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Justinov » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:26 pm

Thorf wrote:Thanks for the explanation, Justinov. A lot of what you said is of course common knowledge in Orkney and Shetland, but there were also a lot of details I hadn't heard before. :)

I found this article giving a projection of how much the dowry would be in modern money. The rather surprising answer is that it may in fact be an affordable sum, at least as far as governments are concerned.

This issue is exceedingly relevant now that Scottish independence is on the table, because regardless of the result of that referendum, a lot of people in Orkney and Shetland would like to see more local autonomy than we currently have. One common perspective in the islands is that Edinburgh is not really any better than London; both are far off urban centres, dictating things on their own terms to the rural islands.

It would be very interesting if Norway or Denmark were to begin dialogue on the whole issue. :D
You are very welcome. ;)
Actually it has to be the Kingdom of Denmark. Norway has no legal claim on the Islands, but they have a historic claim (but so do so many countries on territories around the world).
Denmark-Norway had surrendered in the Napoleonic war in 1814.
So at the Treaty of Kiel in 1814 the Norwegian Monarchy was disbanded and Norway handed over to Sweden. So all the North Atlantic settlements went to the Danish monarchy. We had to give Heligoland to the English, but to receive Swedish Pomerania (we never got that).
[BUT it only specifically stated Greenland, Faroese Islands and Iceland, so maybe Orkney & Shetland are still legally within a dual Danish-Norwegian Monarchy - on the other hand since the Norwegian Monarchy was disbanded in 1814 according to the Kiel Treaty they might have lost the claim].

When Prince Christian Frederik heard about the Kiel Treaty he rebelled and became Norwegian King in 1814 he had hoped for English backing; but it never came. So the Swedes took Norway by force and King Christian Frederik was removed and Sweden-Norway became a dual Kingdom, but retaining the Eidsvoll Constitution. So even if the Treaty of Kiel had disbanded the Norwegian Monarchy it was acknowledged as a dual Swedish-Norwegian Monarchy, because of Prince Christian Frederik's rebellion.
Since Norway wasn't handed over to Sweden in 1814 (it had declared independence), then Sweden refused to give Swedish Pomerania to Denmark! At the Council of Vienna 1815 it was given to Prussia instead while Denmark received the Duchy of Lauenburg. All in all a total Danish disaster.
Had the English back Norwegian independence, then they could just have reformed to dual monarchy at any time again (maybe the English did smell the rat). We at at least saved the Norwegians from being Swedish........
Why did we even end up as a ally to Napoleon? Because the British had attacked us twice (1801 & 1807 battles of Copenhagen) while we were neutral and taken the entire fleet (comprised of 90.000 oak trees)! To regain Danish naval power we started to plant oak trees in 1812 for the rebuilding of the navy. Forester Lars Toksvig rapported to the Danish Admiralty in 2004 that the oak trees were ready for the new fleet to be built! That was a time when leaders thought ahead!


About Norway's claims to pre-1814 territories:
Norway tried to annex North Eastern Greenland in 1931 by settling it, since nobody lived in east Greenland north of Scoresbysund.
It taken to international trial in 1933 [World Court at the League of Nations] and Denmark won the trial. Norway no longer has any juridical claim over the Atlantic territories.

Digressing: The Germans also landed meteorologists at four points in Greenland in WW2 in 1942, but already from 1941 the Danish Sirius Patrol (elite sledge patrol) started to avoid landings on Danish territory in Greenland. For those interested in the weather station war: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... rld_War_II
The current Danish crown prince Frederik has been with the Sirius patrol and especially the navy frogmen.
Currently and ongoing for over a decade we have the very unbloody Canadian-Danish "War" over Hans Island with repeated landings to raise flags leaving bottles of alcohol for the opponents.

Great find with the article Thorf:
100 millions pounds is perhaps way over what Denmark can afford in the current financial crisis. Greenland and Faroese Islands already costs a lot in upkeep. At least they can grow potatoes in Southern Greenland now, but everything has to be shipped up there. You can by a quarter cucumber for a pound I have heard :D so you have to be a millionaire to be a vegetarian!
So solution is that Norway loan [rather give or we have to pledge something else :D ] us some of all that oil money :D then we pay the British Crown and Orkney and Shetland can have a referendum on what to do after they are part of the Danish Monarchy........ :mrgreen:
As part of the Danish Monarchy you are not forced into EU either - Greenland & Faroese Islands are not a members, though Denmark is.

All this is fairly simple compared to the Slesvig-Holsten enigma, that lead to Denmark standing alone in war with Prussia and Austria-Hungary in 1864 and losing Slesvig, Holsten and Lauenburg, only getting North Slesvig back in 1920. The British statesman Lord Palmerston is reported to have said: “Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it.
Last edited by Justinov on Tue May 06, 2014 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by julius_cleaver » Thu May 01, 2014 8:52 pm

Boy...that's confusing. I think I just continue to call myself 1/4 Scotch! :mrgreen:

My grandmother was a MacDonald...one of the MacDonalds that was "massacred" by the Campbells, and then retreated to the Isle of Skye.
Some day I would like to visit The Stor!

Maasacre is a funny word. I wonder what the etymology is?
mascara massacre on mass acres
massacre (n.) Look up massacre at Dictionary.com1580s, from Middle French massacre "wholesale slaughter, carnage," from Old French macacre, macecle "slaughterhouse, butchery," of unknown origin; perhaps related to Latin macellum "provisions store, butcher shop."
That's feasible....
It's about as gothic as you can get with anthropomorphic beavers.

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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Justinov » Tue May 06, 2014 8:30 pm

julius_cleaver wrote:Boy...that's confusing. I think I just continue to call myself 1/4 Scotch! :mrgreen:

My grandmother was a MacDonald...one of the MacDonalds that was "massacred" by the Campbells, and then retreated to the Isle of Skye.
Some day I would like to visit The Stor!

Maasacre is a funny word. I wonder what the etymology is?
mascara massacre on mass acres
massacre (n.) Look up massacre at Dictionary.com1580s, from Middle French massacre "wholesale slaughter, carnage," from Old French macacre, macecle "slaughterhouse, butchery," of unknown origin; perhaps related to Latin macellum "provisions store, butcher shop."
That's feasible....
On the Isle of Skye the Macleods claim Norse Ancestry (Óláfr Guðrøðarson Svarti or Olaf the Black). So the Macdonald's got a little bit of norse help there......
Otherwise massacre etymology shows that it really is something you do with animals, so if one applies it to human affairs it must be when one group is totally slaughtering the opponents like captives in a slaughterhouse (or it's indeed the killing of bound captives).
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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by julius_cleaver » Fri May 09, 2014 1:45 am

I prefer the word Abbatoir... :mrgreen:
It's about as gothic as you can get with anthropomorphic beavers.

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Re: Giant Lao-Kweian ship needs Chinese naval ranks

Post by Yaztromo » Fri May 09, 2014 4:53 pm

Justinov wrote: On the Isle of Skye the Macleods claim Norse Ancestry (Óláfr Guðrøðarson Svarti or Olaf the Black). So the Macdonald's got a little bit of norse help there......
Vikings settled a bit all over the Scottish coasts and you can easily find a lot of references in toponomastic and family names...
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