Any hope for 4E fandom?

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Zeromaru X
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Re: Any hope for 4E fandom?

Post by Zeromaru X » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:24 pm

Tim Baker wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:08 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:13 pm
I think that the idea of there only being one kind of tiefling in Nentir Vale could probably fit in well with a backstory that they all originated in a single type of fiend.
In Nentir Vale, there was a single civilization that decided to make pacts with devils to gain power against their enemies. I'm not sure if this was a single devil or multiple, but even if it was the latter, perhaps they were all under the same arch devil's hierarchy. So it makes a certain amount of sense that they would all look similar.
The primary devil was Asmodeus, but all of the Eight took part. A few Dragon mag articles introduced at least two different bloodlines (tied to Mephistopheles and Baalzebul, IIRC), and the Player's Handbook: Tieflings also brough a few bits of lore about this stuff.


Big Mac wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:13 pm
I'm not sure if the same would apply to Forgotten Realms. Forgotten Realms had connections with the Great Wheel back in the 1st and 2nd Edition Eras and they rebooted the cosmology for the 3rd and 4th Edition Eras. And I'm not sure if the 4e origin of Realms tieflings is supposed to be tied in with Toril or Abeir.
Tim Baker wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:08 pm
I believe there was a novel that explained the change to tieflings' appearances in the Realms. Asmodeus was able to exert influence over all tiefling bloodlines, which made the tieflings appear similar to him. In 5e, the explanation is that this is still the most common appearance, but Asmodeus wasn't successful in converting all tieflings, so those who look different are the small minority that escaped that fate.
Erin Evans' Brimstone Angels series. In short, a coven of warlocks knows as the Toril Thirteen tainted almost all tiefling bloodlines in Toril with a curse created by Asmodeus to change all tieflings of these bloodlines that born after that point in the planet to be "Asmodean" tieflings (so, 4e tieflings), so Asmodeus could ascent to godhood as a racial god. As Tim said, the curse was not perfect and the plan failed in the end (and Asmodeus became a god in the Realms by other means in the end, as well).

The curse was broken by the end of 4e, so new tieflings of other variants can born now in Toril, and obviously, the curse didn't affected the tieflings born in other planes and worlds. But, Asmodean tieflings still exist as a the most common bloodline in the Realms because of 100+ years of existing, making them common enough in other planes if you add to them the Asmodean tieflings native to Nentir Vale.

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Re: Any hope for 4E fandom?

Post by ScrivenerofDoom » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:14 am

Havard wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:23 pm
ScrivenerofDoom wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:26 pm
I'm seeing small signs of life for 4E.

I've become the unofficial keeper of the links to the offline versions of the 4E tools and I'm getting more than ten requests a month for links from people wanting to play again.
You should add a link to those in your signature :)

-Havard
I imagine that would be against the forum rules.... ;)

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Re: Any hope for 4E fandom?

Post by Ashtagon » Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:12 am

I haven't seen those 4e tools, and there was nothing in the first post quoted above to suggest they contain restricted IP.

Without having seen what is in those tools, I couldn't say whether or not they are against the rules. However, posting IP against the wishes of the IP owner is always against forum rules. Only a person who has seen these tools and knows what WotC thinks of their IP status could make an informed content on whether it is against forum rules to post.
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Re: Any hope for 4E fandom?

Post by ScrivenerofDoom » Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:30 am

They're definitely against the rules which is why I won't be posting the links here.

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Re: Any hope for 4E fandom?

Post by Tim Baker » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:24 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:24 pm
Tim Baker wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:08 pm
In Nentir Vale, there was a single civilization that decided to make pacts with devils to gain power against their enemies. I'm not sure if this was a single devil or multiple, but even if it was the latter, perhaps they were all under the same arch devil's hierarchy. So it makes a certain amount of sense that they would all look similar.
The primary devil was Asmodeus, but all of the Eight took part. A few Dragon mag articles introduced at least two different bloodlines (tied to Mephistopheles and Baalzebul, IIRC), and the Player's Handbook: Tieflings also brough a few bits of lore about this stuff.
Was an explanation provided for why the tieflings all looked so similar in 4e if they weren't all from Asmodeus' line?

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Re: Any hope for 4E fandom?

Post by Tim Baker » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:27 pm

ScrivenerofDoom wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:26 pm
I'm seeing small signs of life for 4E.

I've become the unofficial keeper of the links to the offline versions of the 4E tools and I'm getting more than ten requests a month for links from people wanting to play again.
This is purely anecdotal, but I've seen more chatter on the 4e Facebook and G+ communities in recent months than I had in the previous four years or so.
ScrivenerofDoom wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:26 pm
Just as 4E was designed to solve most of the problems associated with running 3.xE, it does a really good job fixing some of the problems revealed by long term play of 5E. Heck, get a decent group playing it on YouTube and it may very well undergo a small renaissance.
I think a well-done actual play using 4e could breathe new life into the edition as well (even if it ended up resulting in some sort of a 4e retroclone that uses the OGL).

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Re: Any hope for 4E fandom?

Post by Zeromaru X » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:01 am

Tim Baker wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:24 pm
Was an explanation provided for why the tieflings all looked so similar in 4e if they weren't all from Asmodeus' line?
Lorewise? None. Mechanically, because they wanted a unified look for product identity.

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Re: Any hope for 4E fandom?

Post by Tim Baker » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:06 am

Zeromaru X wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:01 am
Tim Baker wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:24 pm
Was an explanation provided for why the tieflings all looked so similar in 4e if they weren't all from Asmodeus' line?
Lorewise? None. Mechanically, because they wanted a unified look for product identity.
Yeah, I meant according to the Nentir Vale lore. I remember a thread where someone (you, perhaps?) had mentioned that WotC wanted a unified look for tieflings for product identity purposes. That made sense, but it led me to think all tieflings were Asmodean (if that's a word). Thanks for clarifying that that's not actually the case in Nerath.

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Re: Any hope for 4E fandom?

Post by Zeromaru X » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:23 am

Tim Baker wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:06 am
Yeah, I meant according to the Nentir Vale lore. I remember a thread where someone (you, perhaps?) had mentioned that WotC wanted a unified look for tieflings for product identity purposes. That made sense, but it led me to think all tieflings were Asmodean (if that's a word). Thanks for clarifying that that's not actually the case in Nerath.
The "Asmodean tiefling" concept was created by Erin Evans for her novels (to explain the FR tieflings looks), in Nentir Vale there is not such a distinction. They are all just tieflings.

For NV tieflings, is somehow implied in Player's Handbook Tieflings that the tieflings of today are "weak", and do not have the full power of the tiefling race (because they have forgot how to call on this power). The original tieflings of Bael Turath had different forms and were way too powerful, compared with modern tieflings. If you look at the tiefling nobles from Vor Kragal, they have different forms if compared with the common tieflings. The Zolfura siblings are even elemental in nature. So, perhaps the current tieflings are the form they took after the power of the original pacts was lost with the fall of Bael Turath. As with all Nentir Vale, the ultimate answer is up to the DM.

You can check the Vor Kragal article here.
http://www.wizards.com/files/364_VorKragal.pdf

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Re: Any hope for 4E fandom?

Post by Tim Baker » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:40 am

Zeromaru X wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:23 am
Tim Baker wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:06 am
Yeah, I meant according to the Nentir Vale lore. I remember a thread where someone (you, perhaps?) had mentioned that WotC wanted a unified look for tieflings for product identity purposes. That made sense, but it led me to think all tieflings were Asmodean (if that's a word). Thanks for clarifying that that's not actually the case in Nerath.
The "Asmodean tiefling" concept was created by Erin Evans for her novels (to explain the FR tieflings looks), in Nentir Vale there is not such a distinction. They are all just tieflings.

For NV tieflings, is somehow implied in Player's Handbook Tieflings that the tieflings of today are "weak", and do not have the full power of the tiefling race (because they have forgot how to call on this power). The original tieflings of Bael Turath had different forms and were way too powerful, compared with modern tieflings. If you look at the tiefling nobles from Vor Kragal, they have different forms if compared with the common tieflings. The Zolfura siblings are even elemental in nature. So, perhaps the current tieflings are the form they took after the power of the original pacts was lost with the fall of Bael Turath. As with all Nentir Vale, the ultimate answer is up to the DM.

You can check the Vor Kragal article here.
http://www.wizards.com/files/364_VorKragal.pdf
Fantastic answer! Thanks for pointing me to that article.

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