Lizardfolk of Mystara (and other Scaled Races)

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Lizardfolk of Mystara (and other Scaled Races)

Post by Havard » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:55 pm

On Mystara, we have the following Lizardfolk Races:

The Races
  • Gatormen
    • Gurrash - This is the Savage Coast variety
    • Broadgrin - A variety found in the Barrier Swamp during the Blackmoor Era.
    Caymen
    • Common - found in Karameikos and possibly elsewhere.
    • Cayma - This is the Savage Coast variety
  • Lizardmen
    • Common - As detailed in BECMI
    • Desert (gaz2)
    • Shazak - This is the Savage Coast variety
    • Malpheggi (HW) - This is the Hollow World variety
    • Albino -more on these here.
  • Newt (Knight of Newts) - found in Thunder Rift. Perhaps more closely related to Frogfolk?
  • Krolli (SCA) - found on the Immortal's Arm - related to Dinosaurs?
  • Trogolodytes
  • Chameleon Men - perhaps better categorized as Dragonkin in their post VotPa version?
  • Sis’thik - Found in desert regions. Known to ride Xytars.
  • Lamara - Serpent-like. Related to Hissing Fiends?
  • Pterafolk - These were listed in the Isle of Dread Reincarnated book, by Goodman Games.
Lands
  • Known World - Lizardmen have a long history in the Known World and were more prominent in the past, but still exist here even if they can no longer claim a large civilization of their own. Ierendi, the Malpheggi Swamps and the Blight Swamp in Karameikos are some of the main homelands of Lizardfolk. Desert varieties can be found in Ylaruam and elsewhere.
  • Savage Coast - Gurrash, Cayma, Shazak and Chameleon Men have their own Kingdoms on the Savage Coast. Krolli are found on the
  • Davania - The Lowlands of Amalur are home to Trogolodytes and other Lizardkin.
  • Hollow World - The Malpheggi is home to the greatest Lizardman civilization on Mystara.
  • Thunder Rift - this region has large swamplands that are home to Lizardmen and
Great Lizards on Mystara
These races can be used as mounts or pets by Lizardfolk:
  • Lava Lizard (AC9)
  • Caelica
  • Horned Chameleon
  • Gecko
  • Draco
  • Tuatara
  • Rockhome Lizard (Gaz 6)
  • Giant Footpad Lizard (AC9)
  • Xytar (AC9) - fire breathing lizards who are the favorite mounts of the Sis'thiks
Bloodlines
Bruce Heard introduced the concept of Bloodlines for Rakasta and Lupins. I could see bloodlines based on the Great Lizard monsters listed above for Lizardmen? Draconic or Dragonkin bloodlines might also be created? Flame and Frost Salamander Bloodlines also seem appropriate.

Immortals
  • Demogorgon
  • Ka the Preserver
Resources
The following sourcebooks add to the lore of Lizardfolk.
  • Hollow World Boxed Set
  • Knight of Newts
  • Den of Dragons offers lots of lore on Lizardmen culture
  • Red Steel Boxed Set
  • Savage Coast Monstrous Manual
  • VotPA
  • Ierendi
  • AC2 Treasure of the Hideous One - Introduces the Caymen race.
  • Dragon #315 Sundering Ka: describes the Defilers of Ka and the Ka-tainted template. Also contains synopsis on the creation of Hollow World.
  • Dragon #318 Children of Ka: The Dagger of the Dinosaur Sage. A look at the Malpheggi lizardfolk and the children of Ka.

Also, see this excellent thread by JTrithen on this subject from 2016

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Re: Lizardfolk of Mystara (and other Scaled Races)

Post by Seer of Yhog » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:41 pm

Made a small note in your linked thread on albino lizard men. :geek:

Also, I don't know if it made it in, but I did do a writeup for the Troglodytes of Tredekh for Sharon Dornhoff, as a mini-setting for the HM. I'll check the Vaults if it's there, but if not I'll see if I have it....
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Re: Lizardfolk of Mystara (and other Scaled Races)

Post by Havard » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:09 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:41 pm
Made a small note in your linked thread on albino lizard men. :geek:
Cool! :)
Also, I don't know if it made it in, but I did do a writeup for the Troglodytes of Tredekh for Sharon Dornhoff, as a mini-setting for the HM. I'll check the Vaults if it's there, but if not I'll see if I have it....
Interesting... :ugeek:

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Re: Lizardfolk of Mystara (and other Scaled Races)

Post by Havard » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:16 pm

New subraces added to Gatormen, Caymen and Lizardmen.

Should Mystaran Kobolds be on this list?

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Re: Lizardfolk of Mystara (and other Scaled Races)

Post by Robin » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:32 pm

Havard wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:16 pm
New subraces added to Gatormen, Caymen and Lizardmen.

Should Mystaran Kobolds be on this list?

-Havard
Interesting. In Gaz2 Lizqrdmen were also mentioned existing in the desert, so I assume these are adapted versions of the old Mogreth variety (+1 IN as based on the Mogreth information), and evolved in a version no longer waterbased climate, but desert based. There was a racial/tribal name for these lizardmen in canon or fanon, as they did exist earlier already...This would be a perfect extra lizardmen breed.
Image

as to Mystara Kobolds Canon specifically says these are caninoids, doglike breeds (very dirty with a scaled(ratlike) tail and scale like clogs of hair, yet still a dog like humanoid, and not lizard. The later D&D versions did make the kobold lizardlike, yet they actually speak about the Cayman instead of kobold...Their lifestyle is similar, yet the caymen are more neutral to good while the kobolds are more chaotic to evil
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Re: Lizardfolk of Mystara (and other Scaled Races)

Post by Robin » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:39 pm

https://stuffershack.com/the-devolution-of-lizardfolk/
this link is interesting in this discussion
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Re: Lizardfolk of Mystara (and other Scaled Races)

Post by Havard » Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:09 pm

Robin wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:32 pm
Havard wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:16 pm
New subraces added to Gatormen, Caymen and Lizardmen.

Should Mystaran Kobolds be on this list?

-Havard
Interesting. In Gaz2 Lizqrdmen were also mentioned existing in the desert, so I assume these are adapted versions of the old Mogreth variety (+1 IN as based on the Mogreth information), and evolved in a version no longer waterbased climate, but desert based. There was a racial/tribal name for these lizardmen in canon or fanon, as they did exist earlier already...This would be a perfect extra lizardmen breed.
Good idea. I will add these as a separate version.

as to Mystara Kobolds Canon specifically says these are caninoids, doglike breeds (very dirty with a scaled(ratlike) tail and scale like clogs of hair, yet still a dog like humanoid, and not lizard. The later D&D versions did make the kobold lizardlike, yet they actually speak about the Cayman instead of kobold...Their lifestyle is similar, yet the caymen are more neutral to good while the kobolds are more chaotic to evil
Well, they are described as doglike, but with scales and horns. I believe that they were originally intended to be humanoids. However, Gaz7 the Northern Reaches is the gazetteer that introduces the idea that Kobolds could be of a very different origin and even hints to the idea of them being a "major race" (whatever that means).

Some have suggested that they are indeed connected to Lupins, so that is yet another possibility.

Caymen are indeed the smallest known Lizardkin, but they are really tiny! :D

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Re: Lizardfolk of Mystara (and other Scaled Races)

Post by Khedrac » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:25 pm

Something else to consider for the "desert" lizardmen - are they not the remains of those that lived there before Nithia so before the desert? They might not be suited to it, but clinging on despite. They also have (or had) the potential for impressive levels of magic use...
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Re: Lizardfolk of Mystara (and other Scaled Races)

Post by Sturm » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:47 am

Havard wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:09 pm
Caymen are indeed the smallest known Lizardkin, but they are really tiny! :D
Yeah in canon they are really too small. Small as sprites and smaller than real caymen. I prefer to have them at least as big as halflings, but I'm not opposed to use also a smaller race of small lizardlin, sorta of scaly wood imps :-)
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Re: Lizardfolk of Mystara (and other Scaled Races)

Post by Robin » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:45 pm

Havard wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:09 pm
Robin wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:32 pm
Havard wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:16 pm
New subraces added to Gatormen, Caymen and Lizardmen.

Should Mystaran Kobolds be on this list?

-Havard
Interesting. In Gaz2 Lizqrdmen were also mentioned existing in the desert, so I assume these are adapted versions of the old Mogreth variety (+1 IN as based on the Mogreth information), and evolved in a version no longer waterbased climate, but desert based. There was a racial/tribal name for these lizardmen in canon or fanon, as they did exist earlier already...This would be a perfect extra lizardmen breed.
Good idea. I will add these as a separate version.

as to Mystara Kobolds Canon specifically says these are caninoids, doglike breeds (very dirty with a scaled(ratlike) tail and scale like clogs of hair, yet still a dog like humanoid, and not lizard. The later D&D versions did make the kobold lizardlike, yet they actually speak about the Cayman instead of kobold...Their lifestyle is similar, yet the caymen are more neutral to good while the kobolds are more chaotic to evil
Well, they are described as doglike, but with scales and horns. I believe that they were originally intended to be humanoids. However, Gaz7 the Northern Reaches is the gazetteer that introduces the idea that Kobolds could be of a very different origin and even hints to the idea of them being a "major race" (whatever that means).

Some have suggested that they are indeed connected to Lupins, so that is yet another possibility.

Caymen are indeed the smallest known Lizardkin, but they are really tiny! :D

Havard
Great I would name this Desert Lizardmen kind;
Lacerta Mogreth-agilis... The Dry Mogreth Lizard...referring to its origin and current evolved state.

As to the Kobolds
GAZ10-The Orcs Of Thar-Player book-page 18 wrote:Kobolds are small, scaly creatures with short tails, various dog-faces, and two small horns. when angry, they growl and bark like dogs, and wave their tails when happy. their little horns are either light grey or ivory in color.
Average size 3'+d4 inches
...
Canis Minor Militaris; Rusty brown scales and yellow eyes.
...
Canos Minor Rapidus;...Black scales, or very dark green with blue shades; blue, green or white manes depending on age.
...
Canis Minor Rapidus;...Scales are dark grey with muddy splotches.
All this information does indeed confirm the scales, yet also its canine basis (the features, instictual behavior and latin name for example) clarify this easily.
As biologist the scales could (and probably are) clogged(aka grown together) hairs like Pangolins or hedgehogs (yje sikes are also clooged hairs, with free hairs in between
The Orde of Pholidota (Scaled mammals), could have merged with primitive caninoids or there is some converging evolution. Both cases seem reasonable. Kobolds being small and producing lots of offspring due being easy prey would indeed possibly evolve scales.
As the genetic instable Beatsmen from which they are told to been evolved from, were not only genitic unstable, yet 'banged' everything walking producing lots of genetic mixtures creating the various humanoid breeds we now know. Little beastmen doing so with dogs is reasonable in this concept and thus the kobold mix of beastmen/dog--came to be, with probably some rat (hence the ratty tail) and Pangolins or hedgehogs (for the scales) would be possible a base for the Kobold race. I have read some canon Mystara description of mohawks, moustaches (King Kol), and individual spikes on Kobolds.

So both are indeed possible.
Yet I would not include them to Lizardkin, which are prime based= coldblooded instead warm blooded. Also the only have scales and NO hairs. Kobolds have clear hairs, and dog-like features and behavior. Lizard kobolds would belimiting them to behavior/climate/etc by ambiant temperature. Kobolds are not limited in any way, so are warm blooded, and clearly have mammal and doglike identification markers.

Caymen are indeed small as to the Monster Manual statistics and the Savage Coast-Orc's Heads Peninsula lists them as 12+1d6 inches. Significantly smaller than standard kobolds, something I had not included in my earlier assumption. That is not to say a somewhat larger version could/would notexist or come into existence due merging (lizardmen/caymen) or evolution, explaining the later D&D editions kobolds being lizards and even dragon related.
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